rbent Forum - 2 wheels bad, 3 wheels good?

FlyingLaZBoy

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2 wheels bad, 3 wheels good?
Aug 1^st, 2016, 2:27pm

A bit of introspection, if I may... and a request for opinions:

Back before discovering recumbents, I used to pedal your typical $150 Target MTB around the neighborhood and WRLake, but never doing "road" or "club" riding for any significant distances... and never crashed or broke anything. Then I took the plunge into 'bents with an EZ-1 in early 2005, joined GDB, helped resurrect RBENT, and did over 3000 miles that first year, and ride 3000-5000 miles per year ever since, creating some GREAT cycling memories... not the least of which was getting to know the folks at RANS, thanks mostly to Greg Gross.

However, over those years, I've also "hit the concrete" several times on rides -- usually with the 'help' of wet/slick surfaces, and a couple of times due to tire-swallowing cracks -- but have never been significantly injured or broken anything, and none of them was at high speed or involved any other riders. We've also toppled the Seavo tandem a couple of times at 0mph, while we learned what NOT to do while turning it around... which made me feel bad, because my job as Captain is to not let the stoker get hurt. Terrie jammed her shoulder a bit, but again, nothing broken. But, it's let her participate in rides she wouldn't otherwise have been able to do.

And of course, I've come to enjoy riding at 20-30mph, pushing my physical limits, participating in the TTTT, fast club rides, the GDB time trial, etc., and am honestly proud to be considered a "strong rider" among my friends -- and love my Xstream.

HOWEVER, we have all had the occasional "close call" where we barely avoid a crack, or catch the front/back wheel slipping out and correct for it quickly, narrowly avoiding going down. And we all know DF riders who crash and break collarbones, faces, etc. from falling from a greater height... and I've heard tales of broken collarbones resulting in a $30,000+ hospital bill, albeit mostly covered by insurance (or NOT).

And this past weekend, I read Dennis Tresenreiter's post about he and his wife crashing on their tandem, due to HITTING A CAT WITH THE BACK WHEEL, with both of them in the hospital with broken ribs, pelvis, and more... jeez.... Smiley

....
...
...

So, being in my upper 50s, I'm admittedly starting to think to myself,
   " I don't need the hassle and expense of a crash that breaks something, even if it's my fault"
   " Is it time to switch to a trike, to make a significant dent in the probability of breaking something in a future 2-wheel crash?"
   " Do we sell the Seavo, so Terrie doesn't lose 3-6 months of choral conducting work due to a broken arm/collarbone, because of a crash that is out of my control?"
   " Will I be able to do the club/social rides I'm used to doing? Will I be "ostracized'?" Additionally, tracking 3 wheels through road surface cracks is 3X the challenge... I've ridden the Tour II on the Sunday Roll a few times, and it's kind of like playing a video game.

Then I think, "Will selling the other bikes bring enough to buy the trike I would want?" "Am I 'wimping out'??" "How the hell can I keep up with SquareCorners if I switch?" Smiley

, and "Yes, I'll probably tip the darned thing, anyway...." Smiley

SO -- what do the great washed/unwashed of RBENT say? Give me some feedback, positive or negative, pro-2-wheel or against, or even why you switched to 3 wheels (or didn't!)... Smiley

Best,
Paul

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MrWizard

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Re: 2 wheels bad, 3 wheels good?
Reply #1 - Aug 1^st, 2016, 3:59pm

For speed, safety and security, go velomobile Smiley

Meanwhile, I have had this conversation a lot with people, having lots and lots of time on 2 and 3 wheeled (and even a single wheel for a short time) and it all boils down to a simple philosophical question only you can answer .. are you having fun? There are medical reasons for choosing a trike (or a velo) over a 2 wheeled recumbent, and of course there are medical reasons that a recumbent is a better choice than an upright. Do you face social osterization, yes. But you've already been through that when you started going 'bent . If you climb hills slower than them, its because you are on a recumbent, not because you are fat, slow or carry woolly beard. . If you climb hills faster than them, its because you are on a recumbent and have some kind of magical advantage .. In short its going to happen no matter what you ride, unless its a 1962 Schwinn Paramount, and then its just cool. But back to the issue at hand. "Are you having fun?" If having fun means you get out and ride, have a good time, and enjoy the company of others, you'll find more 3 wheelers out there now than 2 when it comes to 'bents being sold. If having fun means taking podium at the TTTT while taking all the Strava KOMs along the way .. well, it would be a little harder on a trike and you might be better off on a 7 pound stick bike ..

I didn't get much of a choice, medically I'm not even supposed to be riding a bike. If i listened to the well meaning medical community I'd be hiding in a padded room on the fear that if I get into an accident my chances of something minor becoming something major are dramatically increased .. The compromise was, at first, a trike. Not their compromise, mine .. I needed to get back out and I needed to find a way to minimize the risk .. So I had a legitimate excuse(?) to go 3 wheels. Now that I've been 3 wheels I find it would be harder to go back. I still ride my P38s and my 5600 stick bike on occasion (sssh! don't tell my doctor) But those have become special purpose vehicles relegated to just specific things at specific times. But for me they are not as fun .. They are there for a purpose. For fun, I return to 3 wheels. I have to think less about riding, and do more riding. Thats what I tell people who ask me .. I'm comfortable, I'm reasonably fast, I can stop and start when I want. I don't have to worry about serious injury, and --- I'm having fun

That said, how do you know if you are having fun?

As a side note, I've got a 700 thats short-term lend-able if you want to see how much subjugation your friends put you through commit; so far its 2 for 2 of people that rode it buying a trike

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catroad254 rbent member Posts: 239	Re: 2 wheels bad, 3 wheels good? Reply #2 - Aug 1^st, 2016, 6:24pm The only thing to fear is fear itself.
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Dennis

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Re: 2 wheels bad, 3 wheels good?
Reply #3 - Aug 1^st, 2016, 7:01pm

I switched from the vision r-54 to the catrike road. I still feel slow, but I think I was slowing even before the r-54 broke. It's more the rider not getting enough riding time in than the bike/trike choice.

Even on days I misjudge my range and I'm going 5mph up a hill, I'm still pedalling not walking. I've made the same mistake on the vision and didn't realize it before I collapsed due to lack of momentum combined with fatigued manuvering.

The ability to stop at stop signs (or anywhere else needed) without concern for getting out of the clips is a nicer than I expected. I suspect the first thing I'll do if I get on the vision again is come to a standing stop, forget I need to declip and slowly fall over.

I have had a near miss that was mostly because the trike was lower and harder to be seen then the vision. Compensating with taller flag pole.

I've not been brave enough to take the trike into urban riding other than large protected rides. But then I was never particularly comfortable in urban riding on the vision either.

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square_corners

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Re: 2 wheels bad, 3 wheels good?
Reply #4 - Aug 1^st, 2016, 7:12pm

I noticed Flying Lazy Boy used Square Corners' name in vain while postulating on the merits of three-wheelers vs two-wheelers (bents, that is). Paul, I bet you figured I would never see that! Well, truthfully, this is the first time I've ever read this category - fascinating, both yours and Doug's comments.

I always assume I've already bought my "too old to ride anything else" machine and that would be the 700. It helps that I love riding it, even though I have other options at the moment. When riding it at White Rock Lake, i can keep up with the 2-wheelers with some effort and that's great - I get an excellent workout! I still love the Bacchetta, too, but it's too easy to out pace other Clowns at the lake. But sometimes I'm going for the 100 mile so when the others go home, I get busy with the rest of the ride and it's faster doing 100 on the Bacchetta than the trike. The Bacchetta, of course, is great for mixing it up with the road bikes, as long as I never draft and give them as much space as I can. This past Saturday was a good example of that. The negative on the Bacchetta is that I can go down on that more easily than on the trike, although I never have in 6 years of riding it. Fingers crossed my good luck holds up. Of course, I also love riding the DF's too, in certain circumstances and I am relatively unique in that respect among bent riders. The DF is potentially the most dangerous option and that thought always crosses my mind when I do a ride on one.

Paul, if you get your very own trike, you would have no trouble out-pacing Square Corners! I'm 10 years older than you and I will never be as close to your fitness level as I am right now, which means you have no worries about keeping up with Square Corners! I think you have a few years left on the 2-wheel option, but it's good you are thinking ahead. As for the tandem, I have seen tandem trikes on some of the rally rides I've done recently - no need to give up tandem riding if you had one of them.

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Phantom Rider

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Posts: 1056

Re: 2 wheels bad, 3 wheels good?
Reply #5 - Aug 1^st, 2016, 7:40pm

Paul

I can assure you the internal discussion has occurred with many others regardless of the format we ride. I have had this conversation with many of the DF riders on group rides who say I gotta get me one of those and get off this thing, I've had the discussion with myself to get back on the 700 hanging in my garage. I too have eaten more than my share of concrete at low speed and as fast as 20 mph. When I dropped into the crack at alliance airport at 20 mph and went down I seriously had this conversation. Perhaps it's the blessing of not being seriously hurt or broken anything that keeps us going back or thank God the health allows us to continue riding what we love. My catrike 700 hangs in my garage and I have about 1200 miles on it in a little over 2 years, my CA2 is less than 2 years old and has 12,000 on it.

You and I are close in age, I'll turn 59 in October and plan to retire in 2 years. I seriously think about my health, the things I love to do and my life in general. I am convinced the bike is an integral part of who I am and will continue to be. I have a blast on the trike but dude, it's not the CA2. My philosophy is pretty simple, I believe that if its meant to be it's going to happen and I cannot control it therefore I ride with caution and enjoy myself. As of late I have become a little more cautious, I even turned around and came home Tuesday when I saw lightning in the sky Smiley

. The biggest downside of the trike for me is visibility and I know there are many faces to the argument. My greatest concern is not being seen or being able to see and personally that outweighs the fear of two wheels. I often see a car or a pedestrian doing something that I know will impact one us and have time to react when on the bike.

By the way I too have rolled the 700 and landed on my shoulder and head...no visible damage...my wife says not all damage is visible but then again she said that before it happened too.

Life is full of risks and we either accept or reject them each and every day. We should not allow fear to dominate us and control or take away the things we love. As we traverse the Texas highways we often see the giant DOT signs informing us of how many people have lost their lives on Texas highways to date, yet we continue to drive, allow our loved ones to drive and pray for safety.

Life is to short not to have fun.

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2017 Cruzbike V20
2019 ICE VTX Black
SOLD - 2011 GT Karakorem 1.0 - 2012 Lightning Phantom II - 2004 Lightning P38 2013 Rans Rifle 2014 Catrike 700 - 2014 Bacchetta CA2

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rmillay Five Star Member rbent member; go Clowns! Posts: 2179	Re: 2 wheels bad, 3 wheels good? Reply #6 - Aug 1^st, 2016, 8:29pm We wouldn't ostrich-ize you, Paul. Of course, we probably already are. The trike is fun. Going fast is fun, and I don't do that well on a trike, so I still ride the bike. The only thing that's changed is now I'm looking for that magic trike, instead of the magic bike.
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FlyingLaZBoy Moderator '16 ICE SprintX fs, '16 Rocket, '12 KHS Mocha Posts: 5803	Re: 2 wheels bad, 3 wheels good? Reply #7 - Aug 1^st, 2016, 9:00pm Quote from MrWizard on Aug 1^st, 2016, 3:59pm: .....As a side note, I've got a 700 thats short-term lend-able if you want to see how much subjugation your friends put you through commit; so far its 2 for 2 of people that rode it buying a trike I think I'd like to take you up on that, Sir.... Thank you!
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Mdicke

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Posts: 207

Re: 2 wheels bad, 3 wheels good?
Reply #8 - Aug 1^st, 2016, 10:32pm

Okay I am bit of a newbie to the recumbent world having gotten my first less than two years ago. I got the Rans F5 because I still like to kick it when I want and I have never looked back to going bent. I have never been a consistently fast rider but I am more than satisfied with what am able to do on the F5. Last fall I had the opportunity to find a crack at speed down hill but other than chewed up glutes escaped serious injury. Since I have been back on the bike I still crank it up when can but with a more wary eye for road surface.

In March I bit the bullet for a trike because I wanted to have the ability do rides and not have a concern for road surface changes. After a spill on a section of gravel road in the middle of a ride I have not gotten comfortable in loose surfaces on the two wheeler. I chose the 700 because of the the level of performance those of who have them have achieved and it fit my budget. While I have not been able to achieve the same level of performance I have on the F5, I am good with where I am for the riding I have managed this year. For urban street riding I especially like the trike because I do not have to think/be concern with start at stop lights or on hills.

In the end though it still comes down to Doug's comment - if you are having fun (whatever that means to you) and it gets you out on the road , the machine type is really not important.

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« Last Edit: Aug 2^nd, 2016, 6:33am by Mdicke »

Rans F5
Catrike 700
Specialized Allez (DF)

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FlyingLaZBoy Moderator '16 ICE SprintX fs, '16 Rocket, '12 KHS Mocha Posts: 5803	Re: 2 wheels bad, 3 wheels good? Reply #9 - Aug 2^nd, 2016, 8:27am And of course, if I follow the same trend I've done with my 2-wheelers, "different tools for different jobs", just one trike won't be enough... I'd need one for fast rides, and one for more casual / rough road scenarios... perhaps another for touring.... a tandem for two... Oh, Lawd, here we go again...
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MrWizard

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Posts: 671

Re: 2 wheels bad, 3 wheels good?
Reply #10 - Aug 2^nd, 2016, 9:25am

Welcome to my hell. (he says with 2 more velomobiles on order)

Quote from FlyingLaZBoy on Aug 2^nd, 2016, 8:27am:

And of course, if I follow the same trend I've done with my 2-wheelers, "different tools for different jobs", just one trike won't be enough... Smiley

I'd need one for fast rides, and one for more casual / rough road scenarios... perhaps another for touring.... a tandem for two... Oh, Lawd, here we go again... Smiley

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jrob_bent

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Re: 2 wheels bad, 3 wheels good?
Reply #11 - Aug 2^nd, 2016, 10:09am

Quote from FlyingLaZBoy on Aug 2^nd, 2016, 8:27am:

And of course, if I follow the same trend I've done with my 2-wheelers, "different tools for different jobs", just one trike won't be enough... Smiley

I'd need one for fast rides, and one for more casual / rough road scenarios... perhaps another for touring.... a tandem for two... Oh, Lawd, here we go again... Smiley

Here, here! I second that emotion. Ha. Just go by Jay's garage and ride whatever Jay isn't riding. LOL.

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I get about 15 miles per honey bun!

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reever

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Posts: 459

Re: 2 wheels bad, 3 wheels good?
Reply #12 - Aug 2^nd, 2016, 5:29pm

I love my Expedition almost as much as I love my titanium hip, that I worry about on wet days. I thought I'd only ride the trike on sloppy days, but I find myself riding it more often than that--on days when I just don't want to worry about anything, but I still want a workout. It also allows me to fly a big American flag that I would never do on my bike.

What you lack in linear speed you gain in the really neat feel of those lateral g's!!!

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Adults should have fun so kids will want to grow up!

For every mile of road there's two miles of ditch.

I'd rather be sorry for something I did than for something I didn't do.

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Action Lad

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Posts: 1570

Re: 2 wheels bad, 3 wheels good?
Reply #13 - Aug 2^nd, 2016, 6:14pm

Quote from FlyingLaZBoy on Aug 1^st, 2016, 2:27pm:

And of course, I've come to enjoy riding at 20-30mph, pushing my physical limits, participating in the TTTT, fast club rides, the GDB time trial, etc., and am honestly proud to be considered a "strong rider" among my friends -- and love my Xstream.

And this past weekend, I read Dennis Tresenreiter's post about he and his wife crashing on their tandem, due to HITTING A CAT WITH THE BACK WHEEL, with both of them in the hospital with broken ribs, pelvis, and more... jeez.... Smiley

So, being in my upper 50s, I'm admittedly starting to think to myself,
" I don't need the hassle and expense of a crash that breaks something, even if it's my fault"
" Is it time to switch to a trike, to make a significant dent in the probability of breaking something in a future 2-wheel crash?"
" Do we sell the Seavo, so Terrie doesn't lose 3-6 months of choral conducting work due to a broken arm/collarbone, because of a crash that is out of my control?"
" Will I be able to do the club/social rides I'm used to doing? Will I be "ostracized'?"

Then I think, "Will selling the other bikes bring enough to buy the trike I would want?" "Am I 'wimping out'??" "How the hell can I keep up with SquareCorners if I switch?" Smiley

, and "Yes, I'll probably tip the darned thing, anyway...."

A Word from the Dark Side of the Dark Side

Paul, you wondered if you were going to hear it from others if you rode a trike. Yep, though not so much from rbent because now there are lots of trikes in the group which was only, or nearly only bikes. I got the untoward comments and gestures about trikes when I started here which are unlikely to occur again.
Will you get it from the uprights? Yep, each new group seeing you on a trike will have the same or more of those comments and judgements until they run out of things to say, and/or you prove the trike's performance, something they have never seen before. Your performance in high speed cruising? Depends on your motor, but it's possible to go far fast. When I get the linke to Steve Valero's work on the 700, I'll pass it along. : ) If I get the wind to favor me, magic can happen, even for me: https://youtu.be/vbVSxf0j9ZU

So why do I favor trikes over bikes even after finding a fast highracer bike?
They are the best platform for explosive high speeds.
I am predominantly fast twitch in my muscle make up. Anyone else on this forum a former competitive track and field sprinter? Then you would know what it means to deliver 100% of your power, (for me ~ 1100 watts), from the very first stroke: https://youtu.be/3etTylLFxs4 When you do that on a bent bike, my experience is that you lose the stability of the rear wheel, it gets squirrelly and fishtales. On a tadpole, I can dump all that energy into take off, and the trike tracks straight because of the two front wheels, as Jay explained to me. Drag racing is still not often seen in the U.S. Most of it is underground, like Wolfpack Hustle Drags: (go to 2:00) https://youtu.be/AmG9ewGwjTc
High speed stability in turns
When turning on a trike you don't have to worry about surprise sand, water, or any other debris just around the corner. On a trike, it's even more fun. One day, I will find the perfect, wide corner, spread some sand, and figure out drifting on a trike.
When the surface is dry and clean, you can take a turn sharper and faster than you would dare on a bike. At WRL, at the bridges at bottom of Garland road, I take those turns between 22 mph and 25 mph, especally on fresh tires. In fact, on a 700, inside wheel lift is so gradual and predictable that you can explore and learn that edge and use it in your performance riding experiences. I LOVE it: https://youtu.be/T8ipMKhmPRc
That's why I am "Base Trike," though I am faster over a long distance on the bike.
So, if your pleasure is high performance riding, go trike for the stability and to explode with wild abandon.

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« Last Edit: Aug 4^th, 2016, 3:46pm by Action Lad »

"You can't see paradise if you don't pedal!"
T.J. Fowler -- Chicken Run

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aikigreg Moderator recumbent ninja Posts: 3685	Re: 2 wheels bad, 3 wheels good? Reply #14 - Aug 3^rd, 2016, 12:44am Everything's a risk.
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