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Tongsheng TSDZ2 E-Trike Project (Read 5948 times)
jayg
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Tongsheng TSDZ2 E-Trike Project
Jan 13th, 2021, 10:02pm
 
After much research, ordering of components, and some shop fabrication, I'm in the installation phase of my 2007 Catrike Speed trike retrofitting project. The system I've selected is a 500 watt Tongsheng mid drive. I selected it, because it's torque-sensing feature will provide more of a workout than than the cadence-sensing feature of a Bafang mid drive system. Other advantages of torque sensing is motor-cutout brake levers and and a gear-shift sensor will not be needed. I will be able to retain the locking brake levers currently installed on the Speed. I went with a mid drive, because it's more stealthy than a rear wheel drive. The Tongsheng drive unit is smaller and lighter than the equivalent Bafang mid drive unit.
 
If I didn't have a home machine shop, I wouldn't have been able to start the project, because T-Cycle is currently sold out of display mounts ($50) and Catrike battery mounts ($128). My homemade display mount and battery mount were significantly less expensive than the T-cycle products.
 
 

 
T-Cycle Display Mount                                                                                           Shop-fabricated Carbon Fiber Display Mount. Used high tensile strength, 2-component glue to join the 22 mm tube  
                                                                                                                            sections. Machined an adapter from an aluminum rod and added a bar end shifter expanding plug to it.
 
 

 
Display And Throttle Switch Installed On Carbon Fiber Mount
 
 

 
T-Cycle Catrike Battery Mount                                                                                   Shop-Fabricated Aluminum Plate Battery Mount. Mount is attached to trike's frame with 2" muffler clamps.
 
 

 
17.4 ah Battery Installed On Shop-Fabricated Mount. Battery installation is more stealthy than if the battery was installed on a T-Cycle mount.
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« Last Edit: Jan 14th, 2021, 10:59am by jayg »  
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TonyWard
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2 E-Trike Project
Reply #1 - Jan 14th, 2021, 1:18pm
 
You never cease to amaze me Jay!  Remind me not to try and race you on the trike.  Will be expecting a report on top speed soon!!
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jayg
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2 E-Trike Project
Reply #2 - Jan 14th, 2021, 8:54pm
 
Quote from TonyWard on Jan 14th, 2021, 1:18pm:
You never cease to amaze me Jay!  Remind me not to try and race you on the trike.  Will be expecting a report on top speed soon!!

 
Thanks Tony.  
 
Supposedly, the controller cuts pedal assist after a 90 cadence. With the stock 42T single chain ring, theoretical speed at a 90 cadence is 19 mph. If I installed a 52T chain ring, max theoretical speed would be 24 mph. If I replaced the current 406 mm rear wheel with a 26" wheel, theoretical max speed would be 31 mph.  
 
May have an insurance problem with the trike, now that it will be motor powered. My umbrella policy provides liability coverage when I'm riding my non-motorized recumbents,  but it's possible I will not have any coverage when I'm riding the Speed (There was a recent BROL thread addressing this subject). Going to have to check with my insurance company.
 
Installed the motor drive unit and battery wiring today. Received the last of the parts I need to complete the project late this afternoon.
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« Last Edit: Jan 14th, 2021, 9:01pm by jayg »  
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2 E-Trike Project
Reply #3 - Jan 14th, 2021, 9:44pm
 
A 52 chainring would be an easy fix.
 
Since Trikes are not registered the cheapest insurance is bailout and make a run for it.
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jayg
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2 E-Trike Project
Reply #4 - Jan 14th, 2021, 10:23pm
 
Quote from bwand on Jan 14th, 2021, 9:44pm:
A 52 chainring would be an easy fix.

Since Trikes are not registered the cheapest insurance is bailout and make a run for it.

 
I've purchased some additional components to experiment with. One of them is a heavy duty 52T ring. I'm thinking about installing it next to the 42T ring that came with the drive unit. For various reasons will have to move the chain to it by hand.
 
"Since Trikes are not registered the cheapest insurance is bailout and make a run for it."  Cheesy
 
 
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2 E-Trike Project
Reply #5 - Jan 15th, 2021, 8:50pm
 
Finished installing the wiring and motor drive unit today. Will program the display and test ride the trike (If the system works) tomorrow. Replaced the stock chain guard with a 52T chainring,  
so the trike now has two chainrings. A typical installation has only a single 42T chainring. A 42T ring provides a decent top speed for a trike with a 700c rear wheel, but not for the Speed with its much smaller 406 rear wheel. The trike has a ten-speed, 11-28 cassette installed on the rear wheel. Shifting is accomplished via an Archer electronic shifter.  Running 349 x 40 mm Scorcher tires up front, and a 406 x 40 mm Scorcher at the rear.
 
 

 
Note how small the motor/gear/controller housing is.                                                                                           This is the super stealthy side. Hard for a rider being passed to tell it's an E-trike.
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« Last Edit: Jan 15th, 2021, 9:11pm by jayg »  
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2 E-Trike Project
Reply #6 - Jan 16th, 2021, 10:28pm
 
IT'S ALIVE! Took it for a short test ride. Front end shook severely. Sort of expected that to happen. Rode back home and replaced the upper headset bearings with PTFE bearings from Catrike. Problem solved. Took it for a longer test ride that included climbing some hills. It's a great hill tamer. It's going to be my trike of choice on high head wind days. Going to take it on its maiden voyage on the WRL trail tomorrow afternoon.
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2 E-Trike Project
Reply #7 - Jan 17th, 2021, 10:46pm
 
Rode the Speed 17.8 miles at WRL and on the SoPac and Ridgewood Trails. Just before I entered the Ridgewood Trail from the SoPac, the horizontal carbon tube, upon which the Tongsheng display, throttle, and rear view  mirror are mounted, broke off the mount's vertical carbon tube. The high tensile strength adhesive I used to join the horizontal and vertical carbon tubes obviously has very little fatigue resistance. Made a duct tape repair at Craig B's house and continued riding with Craig. Think I will rejoin the tubes with epoxy adhesive and an overwrap of epoxy-saturated fiberglass cloth.
 
Just like I read prior to purchasing the Tongsheng drive, I still got a workout riding the Speed. The biggest benefit I noticed was the satisfying boost it gave when I was climbing hills. The amount of boost is determined by the amount of torque applied to the crank axle. The throttle proved beneficial when my left knee started stinging, and I had to use it to get back to the lake parking lot where my van was parked. Got the trike up to 19 mph (indicated on the display) using only the throttle. The speed and mileage indicated on the display are not precise, because a mounted tire's actual circumference can't be entered during setup. Just a generic wheel diameter can be entered.  Got the Speed up to 22 mph (indicated on my Garmin computer) on the SoPac flats. I've reached 24 to 25 mph at the same location on my Aero trike. I may not have been riding the Speed at the maximum power level. I'll be doing sprints at maximum boost in the future.  After riding almost 18 miles the battery charge indicator was still showing a full charge. The Tongsheng drives are supposed to be kinder to batteries than Bafang drives. The drive is quiet. It doesn't give itself away by emitting a high-pitched whine. I'm liking the Tongsheng, so far.
 
Don't know what the cost of a Tongsheng basic DIY installation would be, because I purchased excess components and fabricated a couple in my shop. I'm thinking it would be somewhere between $1,300 and $1,500. Wasn't as daunting task as I expected. Very little instructions are furnished with the drive components. Fortunately, there are plenty on the Net. A wealth of info and components can be found on ECO Cycles' website.
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2 E-Trike Project
Reply #8 - Jan 18th, 2021, 2:23pm
 
I have the bafang and love it.  I get all the workout I could possibly want. I really enjoy having the motorized trike around for shenanigans. I know you will too.
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2 E-Trike Project
Reply #9 - Jan 18th, 2021, 6:07pm
 
Quote from aikigreg on Jan 18th, 2021, 2:23pm:
I have the bafang and love it.  I get all the workout I could possibly want. I really enjoy having the motorized trike around for shenanigans. I know you will too.

 
Definitely got a workout on the trike today, fighting high head winds. My legs had had it after just 31 miles of riding, mostly in Level 2 of 4 levels of assist. Average speed was a couple of mph faster than if I had been riding my unassisted Aero trike.
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2 E-Trike Project
Reply #10 - Jan 18th, 2021, 7:08pm
 
The ergonomics of the trike are not all that great right now. I can feel the battery pushing on my back, so I've been trying various cushions. Also, the seat cushion is not all that comfortable. Further,  the "Finer Recliner" headrest is not supporting my neck when I have a cushion behind my back. All those things may have contributed to me being tired after just 31 miles of riding today.
 
Found out today that the battery charge level indicator on the display is not working. Fortunately, the battery has a built in charge indicator. However, I have to remove the heavy battery to check the charge level.   May have to do a workaround, like splicing in a little digital voltage meter.
 
I've ridden the trike 50 miles since installing the E-system on it. The charge indicator on the battery is displaying just a 33% discharge. I'm very pleased with that. Current battery voltage is 47.9 (Battery is rated 17.4 ah at 48 volts). Going to have to find out what the battery voltage is supposed to be when the battery is considered discharged.  
 
Checked max speed on flats with assist level set at max (52T chainring and 11T cog on cassette). Max speed achieved was 22 mph. Going to have to replace current 20" rear wheel with a larger diameter wheel to increase trike's top speed.
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« Last Edit: Jan 18th, 2021, 9:21pm by jayg »  
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2 E-Trike Project
Reply #11 - Jan 25th, 2021, 7:01pm
 
Made some improvements to the E-Speed this afternoon. Replaced the 406 mm rear wheel and 40 mm Scorcher tire with the trike's original 451 mm wheel and a 28 mm Panaracer Minit Lite tire. Should increase the trike's top speed from 22 to 24 mph. Since the display on the 48 volt battery that powers the trike only gives a general idea of its charge status, I added an $8 Chinese digital voltmeter to the trike. Now I can tell the exact status of the battery at a glance. Typical 48 v Hailong battery voltage at full charge is 54.6 v. Cutoff voltage is 36.4 v.
 
Don't know what's with Chinese manufacturers of electronic products. Just like the Tongsheng drive system, the voltmeter didn't come with a wiring diagram. It had 3 wires coming out of it - red, black, and yellow. Red is typically + and black -. The red and black wires should be all that is needed to check D.C. voltage. Well, not with the this voltmeter. The red and yellow wires have to be joined together on the positive side and the black wire on the negative, or the voltmeter won't work. A simple wiring diagram would have helped save me 30 minutes of time.
 
 

 
451 mm rear wheel w/28 mm tire.                                                                                                                     Digital voltmeter below water bottle. Voltage is 53.9 v, after 20 miles of riding at Level 2 of 4.
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« Last Edit: Jan 26th, 2021, 4:38pm by jayg »  
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2 E-Trike Project
Reply #12 - Jan 26th, 2021, 7:10pm
 
Rode the trike 51.4 miles today. Not used to riding that far, lately, because of bad weather. Was an ordeal. My knees, particularly the right one took a beating. The right crank arm is offset 10 mm to the right, because of an enclosed large gear on the right side of the drive unit. Will ride some more and see if the right knee continues to give me a problem. Utah Trikes will custom alter a boom to correct the offset crank arm problem (they offset the bottom bracket shell on the boom 10 mm to the left). May have to order a custom boom from them.
 
Sprinted the trike up to 24.1 mph at assist level 4 of 4, between the WRL Bath House and the gate at Dreyfus Club hill. So, installing the 451 mm wheel increased the trike's previous top speed of 22 mph by 2.1 mph.
 
After I charged the 17.5 ah battery the last time, voltage was 54.6 v. After 71.4 miles of riding, current voltage is 51.2 v. Looks like there's a good chance I may get over 100 miles out of one charge, since cutoff voltage is 36.4 v. Tongsheng drives are supposed to be more kind to batteries than Bafang drives.
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« Last Edit: Jan 26th, 2021, 7:53pm by jayg »  
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2 E-Trike Project
Reply #13 - Jan 28th, 2021, 6:07pm
 
After I made the above post, I experienced a lot of pain in my right leg, just below the knee, and in my right hip, that lasted into the night. Never happened before, so there's definitely an ergonometric problem with the Tongsheng drive, as installed, when it comes to my body. I'm used to a Q-Factor of 160 mm when riding with Eggbeater pedals. The Q-Factor of the Tongsheng drive is 210 mm, plus the crank arms' centerline is offset 10 mm to the right. Called Utah Trikes and found out they can alter a Catrike boom to center up the drive unit. Problem is their custom fabrication shop is stacked up with work, so they wouldn't be able to work on a boom for about a month. Will have to mothball the Speed, and go back to riding my Aero trike. If my body won't tolerate a 210 mm Q-Factor, after I install the new boom, the Tongsheng drive will be history. In that case the only option will be to install a rear motor drive on the trike. I already have a battery, so I wouldn't take that big a hit in the pocketbook.
 
 
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« Last Edit: Jan 28th, 2021, 6:12pm by jayg »  
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2 E-Trike Project
Reply #14 - Feb 7th, 2021, 10:55pm
 
Got the Speed back to WRL today. Rode 22 miles with no significant ergonometric issues. Have ridden 112.4 miles without recharging the 48 v 17.5 ah battery. Current battery voltage is 50 v (Cutoff voltage is 36.4 v). Pretty amazing. I've read Tongsheng drives use less battery power than Bafang drives, but didn't expect to get this much mileage out of the battery. And, it still has plenty of reserve left. Sprinted to 24 mph at Level 4 of 4 assist on West Lawther today. Assist cuts out at a 90 cadence (Confirmed by my Garmin computer). I have a Utah Trike extension kit that will allow me to install a 26-inch rear wheel on the trike and increase the trike's top speed at a 90 cadence.
 
Took some accurate measurements of the drive's Q-Factor and offset from the trike's centerline. Q-Factor with ECO Cycles 152 mm crank arms installed is 215 mm. Drive is offset 35 mm to the right of the trike's centerline. I found an old, straight Origin 8 crank arm in my parts box. It had a left-hand peddle thread. I re-tapped it as a right-hand and installed it on the right side of the drive. I ordered a 175 mm Suntour bowed crank arm, machined it down into 155 mm, and installed it on the left side of the drive. New Q-Factor is 212 mm and offset is 24 mm. So, the Q-Factor has been reduced by 3 mm and the offset by 11 mm. The drive would be pretty much centered up if I installed a custom boom with an offset bottom bracket shell. I talked to Utah Trikes about obtaining same from them, but they never made promised follow-up call. I rode today with my body shifted to the right a little and experienced no knee or hip issues, after 22 miles. Maybe I can get by without a custom boom. I'll have to ride 50 miles sometime and see what happens.
 
 

 
Note straight crank arm on left and bowed arm on right
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« Last Edit: Feb 7th, 2021, 10:57pm by jayg »  
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2 E-Trike Project
Reply #15 - Feb 8th, 2021, 6:37pm
 
Rode the trike 33.7 miles today. Have ridden 150 miles without having to recharge the battery. Battery voltage is now 46.4 v. Battery charge indicator on control panel is showing 4 out of 6 bars. Could possibly get 200 miles out of a charge, but not going to try it. Currently recharging the battery.
 
The throttle has failed, mechanically. For some reason it has locked up. No instructions in the boxes on who to contact, if there is a problem. Guess I will order a replacement from ECO Cycles. A new throttle costs only $10. Shipping is free.
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« Last Edit: Feb 9th, 2021, 8:26am by jayg »  
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2 E-Trike Project
Reply #16 - Apr 29th, 2021, 9:57pm
 
Replaced the big ring with the 60T bad boy shown in the below photos. Didn't have to remove the crank arm and spider, so the installation didn't take very long at all. This new ring is a "narrow/wide" type. The teeth are taller to lessen the chance of the chain dropping. Since the ring doesn't have a built-in guard on it, I will now be able to manually place the chain on the inner 44T "get me home" chain ring. Hope the ring helps increase the top speed of the trike a little.
 
 
 
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2 E-Trike Project
Reply #17 - May 3rd, 2021, 10:25pm
 
Tested the 60T chain ring today at WRL. Got the Speed up to 29.5 mph on West Lawther. That's 2 mph faster than I was able to achieve with the 58T ring. Might be able to top 30 mph with max effort and assist level set at 4 of 4 (Turbo).
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« Last Edit: May 3rd, 2021, 10:29pm by jayg »  
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2 E-Trike Project
Reply #18 - Jul 9th, 2021, 3:47pm
 
About 2,650 miles on the drive, now. The driveline locked up twice, yesterday. Was thinking: Uh oh, the plastic drive gear is failing. Later, noticed the electronic shifter wasn't shifting through all the gears. This morning, pulled the trike under a shade tree and checked out the driveline, which had an unusual amount of resistance to movement. Discovered the chain had come off the derailleur's jockey wheel and was dragging on the top of the cage. Put the chain back on the wheel and moved the chain on the proper cassette cog (aligned with the jockey wheel). Fine-tuned the shifting, using the Archer on-line app. Driveline drag is now normal and shifting is perfect. Glad I didn't use excessive force to overcome the locked up driveline, otherwise I could have turned the derailleur cage into a pretzel (Been there, done that).
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2 E-Trike Project
Reply #19 - Jul 30th, 2021, 9:29am
 
Yesterday, mileage on the drive exceeded 3,000. It's still operating perfectly. I've seen recommendations on line to not fully charge the drive's battery, because it shortens its life. I've been charging the 48v Hailong Shark battery fully, because the higher the voltage, the better the drive performs. The fully-charged voltage is 55.1. So far, it's been consistently charging to this voltage.
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2 E-Trike Project
Reply #20 - Aug 27th, 2021, 5:24pm
 
The drive developed control problems with about 3,450 miles on it. It's still giving assist, and the throttle works, but it's difficult to get the assist above Level 1. And when I do get it above Level 1, it's difficult to get it back to Level 1. It's just not responding to the + and - buttons on the display like it should. Manipulated the cable connection between the display and the controller, then took the trike on a test ride this morning. No change, so I ordered a new $60 controller from ECO Cycles. It's already in the mail. It appears I'll be able to replace the controller without removing the drive.  
 
Tongsheng uses the same motor for all of its drives. The controller is programmed to the desired power rating (350 w, 500w, or 750w) by the manufacturer, or supplier in ECO Cycles case. So, in the future if I wanted to change my 500 watt drive to 750 watts, I would order a new controller programmed to 750 watts by ECO Cycles.
 
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2 E-Trike Project
Reply #21 - Aug 27th, 2021, 7:29pm
 
Quote from jayg on Jul 30th, 2021, 9:29am:
Yesterday, mileage on the drive exceeded 3,000. It's still operating perfectly. I've seen recommendations on line to not fully charge the drive's battery, because it shortens its life. I've been charging the 48v Hailong Shark battery fully, because the higher the voltage, the better the drive performs. The fully-charged voltage is 55.1. So far, it's been consistently charging to this voltage.

 
For what its worth:
I recently had a discussion with a AA Mechanic about Lithium Batteries which they use on their aircraft. He is telling me to keep them fully charged for long life. There seems to be a lot of opinions about these batteries.
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« Last Edit: Aug 27th, 2021, 7:32pm by NO BATTERY bwand E-Bob »  
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2 E-Trike Project
Reply #22 - Aug 27th, 2021, 9:16pm
 
Quote from bwand on Aug 27th, 2021, 7:29pm:
Quote from jayg on Jul 30th, 2021, 9:29am:
Yesterday, mileage on the drive exceeded 3,000. It's still operating perfectly. I've seen recommendations on line to not fully charge the drive's battery, because it shortens its life. I've been charging the 48v Hailong Shark battery fully, because the higher the voltage, the better the drive performs. The fully-charged voltage is 55.1. So far, it's been consistently charging to this voltage.


For what its worth:
I recently had a discussion with a AA Mechanic about Lithium Batteries which they use on their aircraft. He is telling me to keep them fully charged for long life. There seems to be a lot of opinions about these batteries.

 
I've been charging my 48v rated battery to 55.1v, since February, with no discernible effect on it. It's a large battery, so doesn't have to be charged as often as a smaller battery. Never thought about it, until now, but that's another good reason to go with a big battery. Rated battery life is usually 800 to 1000 charge cycles. Going with a big battery might be more economical in the long run.
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2 E-Trike Project
Reply #23 - Sep 4th, 2021, 7:33pm
 
Spent yesterday in the Mosquito Works, replacing the defective original controller with a new motor controller I purchased from ECO Cycles. Wasn't as simple as I thought it was gong to be, but the installation went well. Dropped one of the tiny screws on the pavement. Couldn't locate it visually, nor could I find if when I swept the  area with a large diameter magnet. Had to get a replacement from ACE Hardware, which wasted about 45 minutes. Put the drive back together and installed all the cables. Now it was time to power the drive up and go for a test ride. Pushed the "power button" and, uh oh, "Error Code 3" appeared on the display. Looked up the error code in the display manual. Oh no! Error Code 3 is "Controller Failure". So I replaced a semi-working controller with a dead controller. Back to the drawing board. Next time I replace the controller, I won't complete the full installation, until I verify it's working properly.
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2 E-Trike Project
Reply #24 - Sep 25th, 2021, 4:59pm
 
Couldn't order a motor and another controller, because ECO Cycles' new website is still partially in transition. So, went ahead and ordered a new 500w Tongsheng drive kit from ECO. I planned on leaving the old display in place to keep from having to remove a bunch of wiring. When I connected every thing up to test the new drive, and pushed the "On" button, the display acted up like it did with the supposed failed motor and controller connected to it. Replaced the old display with the new one. When I pushed the "On" button, everything was normal. Secured all the wiring, then took the trike for a test ride. Drive operated perfectly. Apparently, the source of the problem with the old drive was the display. I have the display mounted on a carbon fiber "Tee" that is anchored to the left steering lever. It's subject to a whole lot of vibration at that location, probably more than it was designed for. It's my theory that vibration killed it. It's actually designed to be installed on a bike's handle bar, centered on the bike's head tube. It would be subjected to a lot less vibration when mounted at that location. Guess I'll order a spare display when the mileage on the new drive approaches 3,400. The VLCD-5 display is not expensive (Around $50).
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« Last Edit: Sep 25th, 2021, 5:01pm by jayg »  
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2 E-Trike Project
Reply #25 - Oct 1st, 2021, 3:12pm
 
I'm gonna have to check out the BROL thread on ins. My insurance guy rolls his eyes at ebikes.  
The only things I have found are motorcycle level cost and I have too many bikes to make that attractive.
I had a roller skater run in front of me on an announced pass last week , and I shudder to think of what might have happened.
There are lots more punks on ebikes on the trail going 20+ with very little to suggest they have a remote clue
and I see that as foreboding re banning or PI  stalkers looking for a suit.
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Re: Tongsheng TSDZ2 E-Trike Project
Reply #26 - Oct 1st, 2021, 4:57pm
 
Quote from Lowdown on Oct 1st, 2021, 3:12pm:
I'm gonna have to check out the BROL thread on ins. My insurance guy rolls his eyes at ebikes.
The only things I have found are motorcycle level cost and I have too many bikes to make that attractive.
I had a roller skater run in front of me on an announced pass last week , and I shudder to think of what might have happened.
There are lots more punks on ebikes on the trail going 20+ with very little to suggest they have a remote clue
and I see that as foreboding re banning or PI  stalkers looking for a suit.

 
I'm guessing the average E-bike rider doesn't know he/she is not covered by their homeowner policy.  
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