rbent Forum - BB & HUB upgrades

Phantom Rider

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BB & HUB upgrades
Jun 27^th, 2014, 11:44am

Ok all you smart people.

I am seriously considering an upgrade to my new catrike 700 BB and potentially the hubs. I've been reading and talking to folks about the upgrade to ceramic bearings and from what I've seen the difference is quite dramatic.

So before I go spend money I'm curious what experiences you have had and the benefits gained from the upgrade. My intent would be less resistance which would equal less energy required to move the machine and hopefuly an increase in speed as result of this.

I really want this upgrade to be as maintenance free as possible, have a good warranty and extended life expectancy of the products acquired. Should the upgrade prove beneficial in all aspects I will then do the same to the rifle.

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2017 Cruzbike V20
2019 ICE VTX Black
SOLD - 2011 GT Karakorem 1.0 - 2012 Lightning Phantom II - 2004 Lightning P38 2013 Rans Rifle 2014 Catrike 700 - 2014 Bacchetta CA2

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GBRAD rbent member Posts: 35	Re: BB & HUB upgrades Reply #1 - Jun 27^th, 2014, 12:30pm I am also very interested in this upgrade to my 700. Hope to see some helpful & informative comments on this subject.
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rmillay

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Re: BB & HUB upgrades
Reply #2 - Jun 27^th, 2014, 5:58pm

I've read nothing that convinces me ceramic bearings are a cost effective upgrade to a bottom bracket. Initially they may run a little more smoothly (an advantage quickly lost as the steel bearings wear in), and they may save a couple of grams. If you are replacing the cranks for other reasons and ceramic bearings are offered for a small premium, then, hey! Go for it. Replacing the cranks to lose weight or modify the drive will cost on the order of $2 or $3 per gram, unless you have a sugar-buddy willing to sell you his for cheap. Smiley

You could lose weight by taking the bash ring off, too. Also, explore modifications the racer-boys make to the chain path for drag reduction, for more bang for the buck. Just my $0.02.

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Catrike 700
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Catrike Musashi
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"It [Nissan Titan] wasn't named truck of the year because it wasn't the best!" Clay Cooley in his TV a

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Phantom Rider

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Posts: 1056

Re: BB & HUB upgrades
Reply #3 - Jun 27^th, 2014, 6:46pm

Quote from rmillay on Jun 27^th, 2014, 5:58pm:

I've read nothing that convinces me ceramic bearings are a cost effective upgrade to a bottom bracket. Initially they may run a little more smoothly (an advantage quickly lost as the steel bearings wear in), and they may save a couple of grams. If you are replacing the cranks for other reasons and ceramic bearings are offered for a small premium, then, hey! Go for it. Replacing the cranks to lose weight or modify the drive will cost on the order of $2 or $3 per gram, unless you have a sugar-buddy willing to sell you his for cheap. Smiley

You could lose weight by taking the bash ring off, too. Also, explore modifications the racer-boys make to the chain path for drag reduction, for more bang for the buck. Just my $0.02.

Mr Millay

Are you aware of any technical information to substantiate this one way or the other? I have honestly found nothing other than ye ole spin test of which IMHO reveal the lesser resistance with ceramic, however I accept this is not a scientific study and proof. My crank would make about 6-8 revolutions and the ceramic bearing bike would turn for what seemed an eternity.

I wasn't as focused on weight as much as i was resistance and taking advantage of the energy expended. I will never forget the day Mike Librik(Easy Street) looked me in the eye when i was shopping for my first bent and said "if your worried about weight eat a little less and save your money twice". that was priceless advice for a person who is not making a living on their bike.

Racer boys chain path - all I have seen on the 700 is the removal of the tube on the power side, am i missing something?

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2017 Cruzbike V20
2019 ICE VTX Black
SOLD - 2011 GT Karakorem 1.0 - 2012 Lightning Phantom II - 2004 Lightning P38 2013 Rans Rifle 2014 Catrike 700 - 2014 Bacchetta CA2

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Mizta_Nice rbent member Posts: 164	Re: BB & HUB upgrades Reply #4 - Jun 27^th, 2014, 8:31pm You just got that bike and already with the bearings? I'm never gonna catch you now.
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Denman rbent member Posts: 350	Re: BB & HUB upgrades Reply #5 - Jun 28^th, 2014, 12:12am Pump your tires to max inflation and consider that the benchmark for hybrid ceramic bearings. Then drop them by 5 lbs, consider that abec 5 steel bearings. At most that's the difference it makes.
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Phantom Rider Five Star Member Posts: 1056	Re: BB & HUB upgrades Reply #6 - Jun 28^th, 2014, 9:29am Denman thanks for the tip, how do this correlate to the BB? Does anyone know what bearings are stock on the Catrike 700 BB and their stock 20" wheels? I would like to think they are ABEC 5 but can't validate.
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Phantom Rider Five Star Member Posts: 1056	Re: BB & HUB upgrades Reply #7 - Jun 28^th, 2014, 11:37am Quote from Mizta_Nice on Jun 27^th, 2014, 8:31pm: You just got that bike and already with the bearings? I'm never gonna catch you now. Hey, its a month old now.
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jayg

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Re: BB & HUB upgrades
Reply #8 - Jun 28^th, 2014, 3:27pm

I agree with Bob M that BB ceramic bearings aren't worth their expense. Not much energy loss differences between various steel and ceramic bearings. Also, regardless of whether they are steel or ceramic, seems the most durable bearings might have the highest rotational resistances, because of tight seals and more robust grease. See: http://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/gear/article/friction-facts-measuring-bottom-br acket-drag-39233/.

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« Last Edit: Jun 28^th, 2014, 3:36pm by jayg »

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Action Lad Five Star Member rbent member Posts: 1570	Re: BB & HUB upgrades Reply #9 - Jul 1^st, 2014, 1:17am I'm not an engineer, or a tech of any kind, just a high-mileage 700 rider for the past several years. My advice? Take the time, do the mileage, thereby improving the motor. It happens. Do hill after hill, interval rides and just do miles. Every year you'll see yourself improving.
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Phantom Rider Five Star Member Posts: 1056	Re: BB & HUB upgrades Reply #10 - Jul 9^th, 2014, 6:16pm Discovered this article on BROL and thought I would share it, interesting to see the varied opinions on this topic. this article focuses on the Catrike front hubs. http://bicyclepatents.com/ceramic-bearings-revisited/972/
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rmillay

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Re: BB & HUB upgrades
Reply #11 - Jul 9^th, 2014, 9:38pm

The article suggests repacking the bearings, which is suggestive. When sealed bearings are ordered in bulk by a manufacturer, size, general quality, and lubricant may be specified, according to application (and, of course, as cheap as possible). General replacement bearings are lubricated according to their presumed usage. Bike bearings are low speed, low load bearings, but, possibly because we sometimes ride in the rain or the mud, are rated for severe use. Using light lubricant allows the lowest quality bearings to run freer.

FWIW, I've never been able to re-lube sealed bearings without buggering up the seals, but YMMV. Garden variety grease is a mixture of a stiff paraffin and a light oil. It tends to separate with time, so use keeps it working. I favor synthetic greases, which are more uniform, and better suited to a specific function.

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Catrike 700
RANS Formula LE , sold
Catrike Musashi
Catrike Speed
Catrike Speed, sold back

"It [Nissan Titan] wasn't named truck of the year because it wasn't the best!" Clay Cooley in his TV a

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jayg

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Re: BB & HUB upgrades
Reply #12 - Jul 10^th, 2014, 5:14pm

Quote from Phantom Rider on Jul 9^th, 2014, 6:16pm:

Discovered this article on BROL and thought I would share it, interesting to see the varied opinions on this topic. this article focuses on the Catrike front hubs.

http://bicyclepatents.com/ceramic-bearings-revisited/972/

Joe, the following quote from the article is hard to believe: "My experience (Bob’s) with ceramics has been that they make a 2-3 mph difference in my riding." IMO there's not enough energy savings between average all-steel bearings and the best ceramic bearings to permit a trike rider maxed out at 17 mph to ride at 20 mph.

I think someone should buy and install a Powertap rear wheel on their 700, then record the wattage needed to maintain 21 mph on the flats. They should then replace their trike's wheel bearings with the best ceramic bearings, and ride their trike on the same route at the wattage previously recorded, then record the speed and report the results. Would be very helpful. Cheesy

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Phantom Rider

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Posts: 1056

Re: BB & HUB upgrades
Reply #13 - Jul 10^th, 2014, 7:57pm

Jay, I agree someone should do that but it can't be me....you see in the WIBT thread that i can't spend anymore money or someone will inherit all my toys Grin

Quote from jayg on Jul 10^th, 2014, 5:14pm:

Quote from Phantom Rider on Jul 9^th, 2014, 6:16pm:

Discovered this article on BROL and thought I would share it, interesting to see the varied opinions on this topic. this article focuses on the Catrike front hubs.

http://bicyclepatents.com/ceramic-bearings-revisited/972/

Joe, the following quote from the article is hard to believe: "My experience (Bob’s) with ceramics has been that they make a 2-3 mph difference in my riding." IMO there's not enough energy savings between average all-steel bearings and the best ceramic bearings to permit a trike rider maxed out at 17 mph to ride at 20 mph.

I think someone should buy and install a Powertap rear wheel on their 700, then record the wattage needed to maintain 21 mph on the flats. They should then replace their trike's wheel bearings with the best ceramic bearings, and ride their trike on the same route at the wattage previously recorded, then record the speed and report the results. Would be very helpful. Cheesy

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2017 Cruzbike V20
2019 ICE VTX Black
SOLD - 2011 GT Karakorem 1.0 - 2012 Lightning Phantom II - 2004 Lightning P38 2013 Rans Rifle 2014 Catrike 700 - 2014 Bacchetta CA2

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jayg Five Star Member rbent member Posts: 4129	Re: BB & HUB upgrades Reply #14 - Aug 1^st, 2014, 12:34pm Ordered a set of Velocity Aeroheat 24-spoke front wheels for my Catrike Speed from Power On Cycling. Also, ordered optional hybrid ceramic bearings, so I could run some comparative roll down tests. Was advised that ceramic bearings are a waste of money.
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