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Copenhagen wheel evaluation (Read 4973 times)
FlyingLaZBoy
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Copenhagen wheel evaluation
Jan 17th, 2019, 10:48am
 
I've obtained a new 700c Copenhagen e-assist wheel at a pretty nice price, which I anticipate selling to an interested party at some point...  however, I'm going to put it through its paces first on my SprintX trike, to evaluate battery life, assist feel, etc. over the next few weeks (weather cooperating), and document my findings and impressions, here.
 
The wheel itself (with cassette) weighs just under 20 pounds -- came with a 10-speed cassette, and it fit just fine onto the trike.  It took a few calls to customer support to get the phone app to connect to the wheel, but it's finally up and running.
 
I did my first test last night at WRL -- riding at my typical 18-20+ mph on the flats, using the wheel in "ECO" mode.  I used 50% of the battery by doing 22 miles -- however, the wheel's "max assist speed" was set to 20mph, so I didn't use as much battery as i might have at lower speeds.  Also, having a 20 pound rear wheel is definitely noticeable in turns, compared to what I'm used to -- and getting the trike up to 22mph or higher is a struggle without assist, probably due to the rotational inertia of the wheel motor itself.  But, overall, the assist was very smooth, and very quiet - I'm impressed... and I went up the Spillway hill at 18mph!
 
The phone app is interesting -- it shows you a post-ride graph of simultaneous rider power and wheel power tied to speed - so I could see where the wheel assist power dropped off to zero as I approached 20mph (I could also FEEL it)...
 
I've since adjusted the max assist speed to "above 20mph" (theoretically 25mph), and will take it out again tonight.  I will post some plots of the power assist tracking from the app.
 
If anyone is interested in a 700c Copenhagen wheel at a good price ($1,500 retail), let me know - I doubt I'll keep it...
 
Paul
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aikigreg
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Re: Copenhagen wheel evaluation
Reply #1 - Jan 17th, 2019, 6:17pm
 
I've been looking very hard at buying one of these, but my trike takes 26 inch wheels.  Might be over the top to put one on a carbent or fixie. 🤣
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Kwijybow
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Re: Copenhagen wheel evaluation
Reply #2 - Jan 17th, 2019, 8:56pm
 
I've been playing with a single speed one for about a week as well.  On a pretty Hilly 12 mile commute I've used anywhere from 25-40% battery on ECO mode and above 20mpg assist (which I prefer, much smoother).   It appears the ECO mode roughly doubles rider input.  So 150 watts from me is about gets added to about 300 from the wheel.  On a non-recument wind has a pretty big impact but the biggest impact seems to be how many times I have to start and stop.  The thing is very impressive from the almost bionic response feel. Commute times dropped from about an hour to 45 minutes.
 
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Kwijybow
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Re: Copenhagen wheel evaluation
Reply #3 - Jan 17th, 2019, 8:59pm
 
Greg it has its one custom sprocket for the single speed, no fixie, and stuck with 16T, I have that paired with a 46 chain ring and it is about ideal with the power boost.  I generally like to run a 46/18 or 19 without the boost.  It does come in 26 or 700c at the moment, but only rim brakes.  There is supposedly a disc brake version in the works.   I have also expiremented with a simulated battery exhaustion (turning the wheel off) and it is rideable, though you certainly feel the extra weight.  
 
Take Care,
Nelson
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FlyingLaZBoy
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Re: Copenhagen wheel evaluation
Reply #4 - Jan 18th, 2019, 9:14am
 
Good to see you, Nelson / Kwijybow!!!
 
Second ride with the Copenhagen -- I figured out how to increase the max assist speed to 25mph, and it definitely makes a difference.  Went on the GDB Downtown ride from Forest Lane, through the M streets and Swiss Avenue, looping Elm and Commerce, and back up Cedar Springs, etc. for 29 miles.  Kept the assist on ECO. Most of our riding was in the 14-17 mph range, with a lot of stops at intersections.  Observations:
 
* at the 17 mile stop at AA Center, I had used 40% of the battery, indicating ~40 mile range (YMMV);
* Assist did continue up to 25mph, as hoped;
* Assist makes startup from a stop REAL easy, as well as accelerating to speed up;
* The heavy back wheel results in significant jolting when you hit potholes and such, at 15+ mph;
* The heavy back wheel also makes you have to watch your turns, on a trike -- the rear wanted to swing out a couple times in turns, which would be a lot worse in wet conditions;
* The assist is VERY smooth, and very quiet, regardless of power;
* Assist watts generally mirror my own power input or somewhat higher;
* Power tracking plots show a max assist of ~450W during a strong hill climb
* Hill climbing is AWESOME with this thing....
 
I did a few sprints and strong hill climbs on the return trip, and finished the ride with 10% battery left after 29 miles -- but if I hadn't pushed it so hard, I probably could have gone ~40 miles.
 
Next up, "Medium" assist level, when the weather cooperates, or possibly doing Flagpole Hill and Loving at WRL in ECO mode.
 
I'm also working on stitching together the speed/power plots from the app, into one continuous graph photo.
 
 
Paul
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aikigreg
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Re: Copenhagen wheel evaluation
Reply #5 - Jan 18th, 2019, 10:52am
 
Interesting report. I'm glad i haven't bought one yet so i can read about your experiences. Ideally, I'd like one that only assisted from full stop and at a selectable incline percentage.  
 
Nelson, I've had my fixie slash single speed for years now. I enjoy riding it but it's too small for me. Otherwise it's actually comfortable the way mine is set up.
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Kwijybow
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Re: Copenhagen wheel evaluation
Reply #6 - Jan 18th, 2019, 12:38pm
 
Hi Guys!  Yes the wheel seems to be power limited to 500W,  I've seen up to 498w on the post ride readout even when I was putting out close to 300.  It appears that ECO is @ 2x rider effort, Standard 3x, and Turbo is 5x.  However since as avid riders I'm sure we all regularly put out pretty decent wattage, it makes the Standard, and Turbo modes less useful, since it will quickly cap at the 500W limit with light inputs from the rider.  From a controled riding perspective I actually prefer the ECO mode without the 20mpg assist cut off,  which when activated sees your total power output suddenly cut by 2/3rds which makes it feel like the wheel is working against you.  Without the cap the power application is very smooth.  Yeah I like my fixie, single speed.  Kinda weird when the wheel is worth @8x the rest of the bike!  I could definitely see that on a Trike that extra 20lbs hanging off the back could induce some handling issues.  Its not as bad on the upright since it is closer to the center of mass, but even then it does impact the handling some.  I really like the regen activation feature by backpedaling.  Its actually easy to modulate and only requires a very small reversal of the pedals, and reminds me of the coaster brake on my childhood bikes.
 
Take Care,
Nelson.
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Kwijybow
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Re: Copenhagen wheel evaluation
Reply #7 - Jan 18th, 2019, 12:52pm
 
Also I spoke with Superpedestrian about single speed to mult-speed convertability, and they said it wasn't possible as they are not interchangeable.  I assume however if your fixie can accomodate 135mm spacing you could run a single cog and spacers to get the gearing you want.  I thought I was going to have more control over the rear sprocket, and that it would just take a normal single speed freewheel.  But it is a custom deal, and maybe on the multi-speed as well, since they seemed very concerned about controlling any magnetism from the gears, since apparently that can have a negative impact on the torque sensors.  So I need to do a bit more inspeaction, but the cog/cogs may well be something non-ferrous, and may have reduced life span.  It does appear when it comes time to change it I will need to get it from them.
 
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FlyingLaZBoy
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Re: Copenhagen wheel evaluation
Reply #8 - Jan 18th, 2019, 6:07pm
 

 
 
Here are app plots from my first ride at WRL, with top assist limited to 20mph, in ECO mode...  As Nelson suggested, typical assist is to match the rider output (although not necessarily 2X), which can increase when needed -- there's a "tilt sensor" incorporated, that may be to help sense hills and offer more assist.  Response time is supposedly 30ms...
 
You can see that a lot of the assist is about a 1X match, and the last part is when I was riding at 20mph or so, and could feel the assist cutting out.
 
Interestingly enough, after I set the max assist speed to 25, the level of power assist appears to have increased to ~1.5X input power watts.  In this particular graph I climbed a hill at a fast pace at >100 rpm, as indicated by the spike in the center.
 

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« Last Edit: Jan 21st, 2019, 1:54pm by FlyingLaZBoy »  

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FlyingLaZBoy
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Re: Copenhagen wheel evaluation
Reply #9 - Jan 18th, 2019, 6:29pm
 
In my case, the "tilt sensor" may not be working as planned - the torque arm as it is attached to the chainstay is pointing downward at ~15-20 degrees, and when I attempted to "recalibrate" it with the app, I keep getting an error...  probably outside the acceptable range.
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FlyingLaZBoy
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Re: Copenhagen wheel evaluation
Reply #10 - Jan 20th, 2019, 4:34pm
 
Wow...  in "Standard" assist level, it is NOTHING to get the trike up to 20-22mph and hold it there....  the power multiplication is 3x-5x, again topping out at 500W.  Power from a stop is ~400W, getting you up to speed quickly. Very impressive...
 
Went for a 10 mile ride, and used 40%, so basically a ~25 mile range on this setting depending upon your hill climbing.  
 
Here are plots, showing the multiplication (the speed and power indications are where the vertical lines are)   plus a shot showing the power dropoff as I approach 25mph
 

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« Last Edit: Jan 21st, 2019, 1:56pm by FlyingLaZBoy »  

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FlyingLaZBoy
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Re: Copenhagen wheel evaluation
Reply #11 - Jan 26th, 2019, 3:58pm
 
Did the Plano Eastside ride this morning with the Copenhagen on ECO mode...  This is a "casual pace" 40-mile ride, with typical flat cruising speed of 14-16mph, with minimal hill climbing.  I intentionally "babied" the assist a bit, by taking it easy at startups and not pushing hard up hills, to see what kind of range I could get out of the battery. We went from Doug's shop at Los Rios and Park across Renner to Independence, then up to just past 121 in Frisco, then over to Allen and back down.
 
At the 9 mile point, I had used 18% -- indicating 45+ mile range
At the 17 mile point, I had used 33% -- indicating ~50 mile range
At the 23 mile point, I had used 50% -- indicating 45+ mile range
 
Ironically enough, my phone didn't last as long as the wheel -- it died around our stop at the 30 mile point...  which, when that happens, the wheel continues to operate in the mode that it is in (ECO).
 
We wound up doing a final fast run southbound on Dublin, where I cranked it up above 25mph -- this gave me a mile or so with minimal to no battery use...
 
The ride finished with 38 miles recorded, and 20% battery life remaining -- again indicating 45-50 mile range on ECO mode.
 
This was an interesting ride, from an exertion standpoint...  I really never had to work hard the entire ride, and never really broke a sweat until the 30mph Dublin stretch...  HR probably never got much above 100...  This could be a dangerous thing to become used to...   Smiley
 
Power plots indicate the similar 1.5X to 2X input power multiplication supplied.
 
I'll probably take it out on the GDB Sunday Roll tomorrow, again in ECO mode.
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Kwijybow
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Re: Copenhagen wheel evaluation
Reply #12 - Jan 28th, 2019, 12:47pm
 
Wow Paul that is supper efficient usage of the available battery.   I need to do some longer riding to see what I get on my upright single speed.  I have a feeling the aero qualities of the trike are making a major contribution there and I won't get anywhere near that distance.
 
Nelson.
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Kwijybow
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Re: Copenhagen wheel evaluation
Reply #13 - Jan 29th, 2019, 10:39am
 
Last night I did an 18 mile pretty hard ride on ECO mode.  1100 ft of climbing and plentry of Stop/Start and I used 66% for an estimated 27 mile range.
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FlyingLaZBoy
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Re: Copenhagen wheel evaluation
Reply #14 - Feb 1st, 2019, 7:21pm
 
It's obviously dependent upon the terrain, which makes sense...
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