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Learning to ride a recumbent bike (Read 1719 times)
baxsc01




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Learning to ride a recumbent bike
Jul 14th, 2014, 7:47pm
 
I decided to dive off the deep end and I built a M5 carbon high racer from a frameset.  The build itself was successful, but learning to ride it has been a very frustrating experience.  I would appreciate guidance from the group that will either convince me that the bike is not for me, or get me over a serious phobia I'm developing.
 
The issue is starting from a dead stop.  I employ a compact crank, 50/34, with an 11/36 cassette.  The bike is well fitted in terms of bar placement, crank length (165 mm arms) and leg extension.  Here's the gist of my problem - when I push off from a standing start I'll either push the bike over on the side I'm pushing or I don't put enough energy in the pedal to gain enough velocity to balance while I put my other foot on the pedal.
 
*  I've braced my back against the seat to push and that seems to make it worse (tipping on side that pushes)
*  I use a larger cog on the cassette and it doesn't give good velocity at the end of a 90-120 degree range of push so the bike's twitching as I try to get my other foot on the pedal.  My best results are with the 25 tooth cog on the back
*  A smaller cog causes me to push hard enough to make the bike want to tip over, and I've had very inconsistent results counteracting with steering
 
I'm slowly improving, but still one try out of 4, or 1 out of 3, aborts wither with tipping on the push side or inability to maintain balance to lift the other foot onto the pedal.  I've fallen enough that I put big downhill type platform pedals on for training purposes (speedplay light actions are the pedals I normally use).  I need to improve faster.  I've got about 12 hours into this focusing just on the start, and I'm literally hyperventilating and just about getting the shakes after I blow a start and have to try again.  I check out this youtube clip where this guy very slowly starts off on his M5 CHR without any twitching and pedals along in a neighborhood and I wonder why I can't do that.  I do have one qualifier - I'm practicing my starts on an uphill (slight but clearly visible) because that's what a lot of my town is like.  On flats road camber is something I have to deal with because the bike will want to drift toward the curb but I'm better at managing that.
 
Any thoughts or guidance would be dearly appreciated.
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Monkeywrangler22
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Re: Learning to ride a recumbent bike
Reply #1 - Jul 15th, 2014, 7:54am
 
I would say put the Speedplays back on, so you can pedal one-legged if you do not get your down-foot back into the clip on the first try.  Also select an easy enough gear that you can pedal one legged.
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Patti
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Re: Learning to ride a recumbent bike
Reply #2 - Jul 15th, 2014, 8:58am
 
Perhaps finding a large, level parking lot to practice in would help build your skills and restore your confidence.
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AustinSkater






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Re: Learning to ride a recumbent bike
Reply #3 - Jul 15th, 2014, 9:17am
 
Never unclip both feet, leave your stronger leg clipped in. Put the clipped pedal at the top of your stroke, this way you can get max push.  Lean slightly forward in the seat, lift the grounded foot and pedal.  Do not attempt to clip in until you are going fast enough to be stable, this will allow you to focus on controlling your balance  (if you have a bike trainer, work on the mechanics there first).  I'm assuming that the M5 doesn't have a major issue with pedal-steer (where the bike pushes hard to the side being pedaled).
 
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Re: Learning to ride a recumbent bike
Reply #4 - Jul 15th, 2014, 9:45am
 
I would have to disagree with Bryan on leaning forward...  this can cause you to pull on the bars, destabilizing you.  Stay against the seatback, to allow it to support your pushoff -- and keep a LIGHT touch on the steering.  Literally, just a couple fingers, if possible.
 
You've chosen a bike that, while very aerodynamic and potentially fast, has a very laid-back recline to the seat, which definitely makes startup balance a challenge.  It also has a tight cockpit, so any major turning will give you either heelstrike or bar/thigh interference.  On top of that, you say you're starting on a slight uphill...   DON'T DO THIS!!!!  Use gravity to your advantage while learning, and do things DOWNHILL until you get a better feel for the startup balance.   Push off, and coast briefly...
 
Another thing you can do, at least temporarily, is raise the seatback to reduce the recline -- again, just for a short while, to help you get your balance down.
 
You don't say where you live...????
 
Paul
 
 
Quote from baxsc01 on Jul 14th, 2014, 7:47pm:
I decided to dive off the deep end and I built a M5 carbon high racer from a frameset.  The build itself was successful, but learning to ride it has been a very frustrating experience.  I would appreciate guidance from the group that will either convince me that the bike is not for me, or get me over a serious phobia I'm developing.

The issue is starting from a dead stop.  I employ a compact crank, 50/34, with an 11/36 cassette.  The bike is well fitted in terms of bar placement, crank length (165 mm arms) and leg extension.  Here's the gist of my problem - when I push off from a standing start I'll either push the bike over on the side I'm pushing or I don't put enough energy in the pedal to gain enough velocity to balance while I put my other foot on the pedal.

*  I've braced my back against the seat to push and that seems to make it worse (tipping on side that pushes)
*  I use a larger cog on the cassette and it doesn't give good velocity at the end of a 90-120 degree range of push so the bike's twitching as I try to get my other foot on the pedal.  My best results are with the 25 tooth cog on the back
*  A smaller cog causes me to push hard enough to make the bike want to tip over, and I've had very inconsistent results counteracting with steering

I'm slowly improving, but still one try out of 4, or 1 out of 3, aborts wither with tipping on the push side or inability to maintain balance to lift the other foot onto the pedal.  I've fallen enough that I put big downhill type platform pedals on for training purposes (speedplay light actions are the pedals I normally use).  I need to improve faster.  I've got about 12 hours into this focusing just on the start, and I'm literally hyperventilating and just about getting the shakes after I blow a start and have to try again.  I check out this youtube clip where this guy very slowly starts off on his M5 CHR without any twitching and pedals along in a neighborhood and I wonder why I can't do that.  I do have one qualifier - I'm practicing my starts on an uphill (slight but clearly visible) because that's what a lot of my town is like.  On flats road camber is something I have to deal with because the bike will want to drift toward the curb but I'm better at managing that.

Any thoughts or guidance would be dearly appreciated.

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AustinSkater






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Re: Learning to ride a recumbent bike
Reply #5 - Jul 15th, 2014, 10:08am
 
Quote from FlyingLaZBoy on Jul 15th, 2014, 9:45am:
I would have to disagree with Bryan on leaning forward...  this can cause you to pull on the bars, destabilizing you.  Stay against the seatback, to allow it to support your pushoff -- and keep a LIGHT touch on the steering.  Literally, just a couple fingers, if possible.

Paul

 
Paul is actually correct, in my case I lean forward 'cause my recline is extreme for a Corsa, but I can do that while keeping a light touch on my bars.  I can start all the way reclined, but that's when I'm the squirrelliest.
 
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« Last Edit: Jul 15th, 2014, 10:10am by AustinSkater »  

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Re: Learning to ride a recumbent bike
Reply #6 - Jul 15th, 2014, 10:18am
 
I have nothing to add other than I'm also a m5 rider.  What part if town do you live in?  It'd be cool to ride in a pack.
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« Last Edit: Jul 19th, 2014, 7:12am by FlyingLaZBoy »  

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baxsc01




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Re: Learning to ride a recumbent bike
Reply #7 - Jul 15th, 2014, 4:20pm
 
Quote from AustinSkater on Jul 15th, 2014, 9:17am:
Never unclip both feet, leave your stronger leg clipped in. Put the clipped pedal at the top of your stroke, this way you can get max push.  Lean slightly forward in the seat, lift the grounded foot and pedal.  Do not attempt to clip in until you are going fast enough to be stable, this will allow you to focus on controlling your balance  (if you have a bike trainer, work on the mechanics there first).  I'm assuming that the M5 doesn't have a major issue with pedal-steer (where the bike pushes hard to the side being pedaled).


 
Actually, I found leaning forward to be the single most effective change in technique.  I believe it's because I'm altering where I'm putting pressure on the frame with my body.  Leaning forward drops the main contact patch to the lower thorac region, not the tops of the shoulders, and this drops the pressure point on the seat considerably.  The seat is a lever on the frame and pressing up on the top of the seat by leaning fully back causes that seat to act like a breaker bar torquing the frame one way or another so I'm unstable.  I don't pull on the bars.  That's a quick way to mess up your front end as well as oversteer.  All I need to do is get my shoulder blades off of the seat and I'm much better.  Not good yet, but better.  Fear is still a big factor and my pushing leg will shake in anxiety.  All I'm doing now is starting, pedaling a time or two, stopping and starting again, on the uphill alley behind my house.  Once I can push and pedal every time I'll put the speedplays back on.  Practiced twice today and had the Speedplays been on I'd have fallen on the push side 4-5 times, scraping off the 8" long scab on my left arm
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baxsc01




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Re: Learning to ride a recumbent bike
Reply #8 - Jul 15th, 2014, 4:44pm
 
Quote from FlyingLaZBoy on Jul 15th, 2014, 9:45am:
I would have to disagree with Bryan on leaning forward...  this can cause you to pull on the bars, destabilizing you.  Stay against the seatback, to allow it to support your pushoff -- and keep a LIGHT touch on the steering.  Literally, just a couple fingers, if possible.

You've chosen a bike that, while very aerodynamic and potentially fast, has a very laid-back recline to the seat, which definitely makes startup balance a challenge.  It also has a tight cockpit, so any major turning will give you either heelstrike or bar/thigh interference.  On top of that, you say you're starting on a slight uphill...   DON'T DO THIS!!!!  Use gravity to your advantage while learning, and do things DOWNHILL until you get a better feel for the startup balance.   Push off, and coast briefly...

Another thing you can do, at least temporarily, is raise the seatback to reduce the recline -- again, just for a short while, to help you get your balance down.

You don't say where you live...????

Paul

 
I live in St. Louis, MO.  Hills are all over, and my belief was that if I can't handle a mild uphill I might as not bother.  I know I need to build confidence, but I've already been caught having to stop on an uphill more than once when traffic didn't permit me to creep through a stop (hills are everywhere) so I gave up and focused on uphill start.  I have all 3 seat pillars for the bike and can put the tallest one back on.  I started with it and it was very difficult getting off the bike because the bar hit my chest before I could stand up.  Given what I'm learning about starting it may go back on for a period of time.  
I made quite sure my crank arms would not interfere with the wheel and have experienced mild heel strike, but that's manageable unless I have to pedal through a right hand turn at an intersection from a stop, then it's rough.  Downhill starts are a cinch, and once I get above 5 MPH I'm good to go, so long as I don't stop.  I have a benchmark to make before the speedplays go back on - first time every time starting on a mild incline, and NO tipping on the push side whatsoever.  If my improvement is constant I probably have another 16-20 hours practice to go before I can put the speedplays back on, then I'll undoubtedly fall a few more times before I'm confident getting out of my residential area and into traffic.
 
Yes, speed is good.  I can maintain 25 mph for some distance on flat terrain while on the Catrike 700 it's a serious effort to even touch 25 mph let alone maintain it for more than a few blocks.  Part of that issue is the rough streets in St. Louis.  I get bumped around on the Catrike but the M5 just floats over the rough patches.
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baxsc01




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Re: Learning to ride a recumbent bike
Reply #9 - Jul 15th, 2014, 4:47pm
 
Quote from AustinSkater on Jul 15th, 2014, 9:17am:
Never unclip both feet, leave your stronger leg clipped in. Put the clipped pedal at the top of your stroke, this way you can get max push.  Lean slightly forward in the seat, lift the grounded foot and pedal.  Do not attempt to clip in until you are going fast enough to be stable, this will allow you to focus on controlling your balance  (if you have a bike trainer, work on the mechanics there first).  I'm assuming that the M5 doesn't have a major issue with pedal-steer (where the bike pushes hard to the side being pedaled).


 
For me, pedal steer is a serious problem when starting.  Once I'm above 4 MPH I can really push and pull hard and the bike is stable.  From a stop, I've fallen on the push side most of the time.  I think I know why, and it involves where my body contacts the seat when starting.  I do have a trainer and spent considerable time practicing on it first, but that of course takes balance and pedal steer out of the equation so once on the street I faced a different scenario.
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baxsc01




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Re: Learning to ride a recumbent bike
Reply #10 - Jul 15th, 2014, 4:58pm
 
Quote from aikigreg on Jul 15th, 2014, 10:18am:
I have buying to add other than I'm also a m5 rider.  What part if town do you live in?  It'd be cool to ride in a pack.

 
I live in St. Louis, MO.  Apart from one Lightning R84 I saw, any recumbent is a stick bike as is to be expected.  I see a smattering of trikes but they are quite few (but more prevalent than M5 carbon high racers in this town).  A trike in St. Louis urban traffic is not a comfortable thing, and contrary to what they say, though a trike may rail on the downhill, the uphill is a mother and you burn all your matches before you know it, unless you're happy holding to 200 watts and creeping up the hills at 4 MPH.  I can't do it.  Moving my powertap wheel between the M5 and Catrike 700 tells me that 14 lbs (the weight difference between the two) along with whatever extra drag/friction the Catrike has with 3 contact patches, etc. costs about 75 watts to get up a short, steep pitch at the same speed as the M5, which I regularly take at 12-14 mph.  Yeah, once I'm going I'm good - I just can't stop.  I should just take the bike to a velodrome we have here and not bother with anything else.
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Re: Learning to ride a recumbent bike
Reply #11 - Jul 15th, 2014, 7:03pm
 
Congratulations on jumping into the deep end, but it sounds like you're experiencing the hazards of that first hand.  Now, I've witnessed a tyro take off on a Corsa and ride it as though she was an old hand with recumbents.  I, however, was not so advantaged.  (I was a trike rider for several months before going to two-wheel recumbents.)  I started with a RANS Formula with much less of a step-up, but hill starts, and more important, quick starts to cross busy thoroughfares, were traumatic for me.  What I found with time was, the more relaxed I was for the start, the easier it was.  I know it's not much good to advise someone who is terrified to remain calm, but there it is.  From a bystander's viewpoint, you seem to be floundering a bit.  So, take yourself back to school, analyse what you're doing in a way you can figure out what you can do to compensate, and get more practice where the consequences aren't so dire, like a quiet parking lot.  And put up with the trike a little longer.  It keeps your legs strong!   Smiley
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dhansen




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Re: Learning to ride a recumbent bike
Reply #12 - Jul 25th, 2014, 10:02am
 
My experiences were similar when I went from my Catrike Expedition to my low-racer Catrike Musashi (fix seat position) and my Optima Baron (adjustable seat recline).
 
I had read that a person need about 500 miles to acclimate to a low-racer. So, when I got my Musashi I did a few long rides and quickly had 500 miles. Of course, very little of the riding was the start and stop practicing I really needed and I was quite disappointed that I still could not reliably start out without falling over.
 
This is when I sat down to analyze the problem and put together a plan to conquer this stupid bike.
 
Here are several hints and the analysis that helped me.
 
It took a lot of practice to acclimate to the point that starts (and stops) were completely natural - that is the body reacted and balanced automatically without me thinking about it. Practice consisted of at least one to two hours daily riding around my small neighborhood starting and stopping at every intersection. I did this for almost a week.
 
Balance at low speed is controlled by two things: 1) can your senses determine what the bike is doing? and 2) can you compensate for the bike getting off a straight track by either moving weight side-to-side or by moving the steering tiller correctly to compensate.
 
1) For my body to sense what the bike was actually doing my inner ear balance was helped by having the seat as upright as possible (on the Baron). Once mastered at this seat recline I gradually reclined the seat more over several weeks as my balance became better. The Musashi has a fixed seat position so this option was not available.
 
For you to sense what the bike is doing your body needs to have as many non-moving contact points as possible (at least three) with the bike. Your hands on the tiller, and your feet on the peddles, are aways moving and hence are poor contact points to use for sensing what the bike is actually doing underneath you.  
 
The three fix points that work the best are your butt and your two shoulder blades. Keep your shoulder blades pinned against the seat - you need this to sense what the bike is doing. It is true that when the seat is really reclined, and you are really laid back, it makes it difficult to sift your weight for balance - leaning forward gives you more ability to shift body weight to correct the balance but inhibits your ability to sense what corrections are actually needed. We cover how to balance in the next section - for now you need to know what the bike is doing and that requires the three non-moving contact points.    
 
2) Balancing is divided into low speed balancing and non-low speed balancing. Once at speed (usually 6+ mph) your skills developed riding a bike as a child kick in and you naturally balance the bike using steering input. This skill set works because the steering input required to be successful is small and leaning/steering mistakes are easily sensed/detected by your inner ear AND ALSO DETECTED by your eyes looking at the horizon and seeing what the front end of the bike is doing relative to the horizon. The more laid back the seat (and hence your head) the more difficult it is for your inner ear balance sensing and the more you rely upon you eyes sensing the horizon changes.
 
Balancing at low speed (i.e. from a stop) has a few complications.  
 
You now can no longer can use your eyes to sense/detect the bike leaning because there is not yet enough relative movement between the front of your bike and the horizon for your brain to make a steering correlation before the bike leans too far to recover. Hence, you really need the three non-moving contact points (two shoulder blades and butt) to be solid with the bike and you need you head to be relatively still to help your inner ear balance mechanism.
 
To minimize peddle steer you need a constant force. This requires that at least one foot be clipped in and you peddle in a circle with the one foot. That is, push and pull with the one foot at a constant force with your dominate foot all around the circle. This is more important to reduce the peddle steer than whether you peddle hard or soft. The initial push will effect your balance but after that the constant force will not effect your balance. If you initially push hard once then stop the rotational force (to take time get your other foot up) then there will be two force changes (once applying and then unapplying) which causes more balancing issues.
 
At this point you have the ability to sense what the bike is doing (three non-moving contact points) and a constant force applied to the peddles. Now all you have to do is balance.
 
The bike is moving too slow to balance using only steering input. Using only steering inputs to balance at this slow speed requires huge swings in the tiller causing more issues that it solves - heel strikes and your body wiggling side-to-side causing the contact points to become unpinned reducing your ability to know what the bike is doing.
 
At low speed you only have two body parts to use for weight shift balancing - your head and your non-dominate leg which is still unclipped. Your head is not heavy enough and cannot be moved side-to-side enough to make a big enough difference at this low speed. You also need your head movement minimized to help your inner ear balance understand what the bike is doing.
 
Your leg on the other hand weighs a lot and can be moved outwards probably a couple of feet. Keep your foot close to the ground moving the leg outwards and back to control your balance while getting up to 6+ mph.  
 
When you sense balance trouble (which you will quite a few times) move your unclipped foot (which is just inches off the ground) way outward a couple of feet. This will definitely weight the bike enough to that side that it will fall towards the foot that is just a few inches off the ground. Put the brakes on and put your foot down. Start over try again.
 
Watch videos of low-racer riders starting. You will see them use these techniques.
 
Again:
 
1) three non-moving contact points (shoulder blades and butt)
2) constant peddling force (one foot clipped in)
3) use leg for weight shifting balance (the other unclipped foot)
4) once at speed clip in the other foot
 
In practice, once the technique is mastered, this is way over analyzed. However, I usually required some type of body-anatomy/sports-analysis initially just to convince myself that the technique has some scientific basis.
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« Last Edit: Jul 25th, 2014, 10:05am by dhansen »  
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Rat Rider




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Re: Learning to ride a recumbent bike
Reply #13 - Jul 29th, 2014, 12:36am
 
I may have skipped over it, but how is the steering setup?
 
A. Set the seat as upright as you can make it. Even put temp padding on the back. The bike will be more difficult to ride the more reclined the seat. Save the recline for after you get more experienced.
B. If the handlebars are hamsters, figure out anyway to move them up to allow the seat to be adjusted. If the bars are static, I would install a pivot. This will stop the ridiculous dance to get off the bike and allow you the seat adjustment.
C. If you have an open cockpit, disregard B.
 
Ymmv
 
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« Last Edit: Jul 29th, 2014, 12:39am by Rat Rider »  

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