rbent Forum - 26/26 vs 26/20

Monkeywrangler22

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Re: 26/26 vs 26/20
Reply #30 - Aug 13^th, 2013, 7:51am

Also if the idea of swapping wheel sizes appeals to you, then give the Giro26 a hard look. It will run (using disc hubs) a pair of 24", 559's and 700's with ease. You can run at least 700x25c tires on the old frame (has the brake boss between the rear stays) and if you grind off that boss, you should be able to run 700x28c or maybe one size larger than that. On the 559 wheels you can run fat-tires on it, up to 1.75 IIRC.

Also to the OP, if you are in the Dallas area, Dave and I are up in Collin Co and you would be welcome to test ride a Giro set up with 700c wheelset.

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FlyingLaZBoy

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Re: 26/26 vs 26/20
Reply #31 - Aug 13^th, 2013, 11:09am

Now THERE'S the voice of experience, folks!!!! 'preciate it, Kent!!! (notice he is talking >20mph speed ranges)

Quote from goatstick on Aug 12^th, 2013, 4:41pm:

Quote from FlyingLaZBoy on Aug 12^th, 2013, 1:27pm:

I wouldn't think there would be much perceived rolling speed difference between 650 and 700 wheels in normal or even energetic riding

After doing race after race with JS in 2011 when he was on his CA2-700 and I was on my old CA2-650 and us being pretty close to neck and neck when were working it together I thought the same thing. Then I moved to the CA2-700 and discovered the 700 really is faster, even at speeds in the low 20's and even though the CA2-700 frame is most likely less aero due to the greater inclined angle of the frame. The speed increase is both perceived and actual. In my case, the only difference was the frameset and the wheels. Not only that but when JS, Jac and I all moved to the 700s we all had a tendency to mash more because it was easier to get a little more speed out of the 700s when you did than when on a 650. So we had to teach ourselves to try to resist the temptation to get that little extra speed when doing a longer race and go back to spinning as we did more on the 650s. I suspect that the 'wall' is not quite as steep on 700s as on 650s.

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goatstick

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Re: 26/26 vs 26/20
Reply #32 - Aug 13^th, 2013, 12:00pm

Quote from FlyingLaZBoy on Aug 13^th, 2013, 11:09am:

Now THERE'S the voice of experience, folks!!!! 'preciate it, Kent!!! (notice he is talking >20mph speed ranges)

I will say that while the 700's roll a little easier, I found I generally enjoyed the 650 ride a little more most of the time (except on boulder-seal). Both my Corsa 650 and my CA2 650 handled a little nicer and quicker and accellerated faster but when it comes to racing, the 700 is definitely the way to go, especially if you get your seat set up well (and at a very low seat angle :^). Now that I have my new seat+tailbox set up on the M5, it really putters along at a good clip for very little input power. Doesn't turn right worth a flip at low speed with the chain tubes removed though.

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artcat

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Re: 26/26 vs 26/20
Reply #33 - Aug 14^th, 2013, 10:24am

I have owned both a P-38 and a Corsa 650. Enjoyed both but prefer the more reclined seat and more open relaxed cockpit of the Corsa. It for me is more comfortable and a better handling ride than the P-38. I think I am a little faster on the Corsa. I ride the 650 because my legs are not long enough to touch the ground when sitting on a 700. That makes it very hard to start. But my absolute favorite bike is my Catbike. It is a 20/700 and is both comfy and fast.

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goatstick

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Re: 26/26 vs 26/20
Reply #34 - Aug 14^th, 2013, 12:34pm

Quote from artcat on Aug 14^th, 2013, 10:24am:

I ride the 650 because my legs are not long enough to touch the ground when sitting on a 700.

I wish there were more low seat angle carbon seats with a very lightly flaired seatpan. That one feature really lowers the bar for shorter riders. My CA2-700 with experimental seat had noticably less of a reach than my CA2-650 with stock seat. Getting good, modern CF seats out there would provide a huge improvement in comfort and speed for normal stickbikes.

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Rat Rider

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Re: 26/26 vs 26/20
Reply #35 - Aug 14^th, 2013, 3:00pm

Quote from goatstick on Aug 14^th, 2013, 12:34pm:

I wish there were more low seat angle carbon seats with a very lightly flaired seatpan. That one feature really lowers the bar for shorter riders. My CA2-700 with experimental seat had noticably less of a reach than my CA2-650 with stock seat. Getting good, modern CF seats out there would provide a huge improvement in comfort and speed for normal stickbikes.

Whoa, hang on - am I reading this correctly? Your 700c Carbon Aero is lower with the new seat than the 650 w/ the standard carbon hard shell? That is a game changer.

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goatstick

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Re: 26/26 vs 26/20
Reply #36 - Aug 14^th, 2013, 10:55pm

Quote from Rat Rider on Aug 14^th, 2013, 3:00pm:

Whoa, hang on - am I reading this correctly? Your 700c Carbon Aero is lower with the new seat than the 650 w/ the standard carbon hard shell? That is a game changer.

I haven't tried the production seat as I haven't built a std stickbike rib version of it yet but the last experimental seat was and I expect this one will be also. Next seat off of the production molds will be a stickbike seat and it will be going on a 650 CA2. I sold the 700 CA2 so can't check that out but can give a seat height for the 650 when it is mounted. You velcro the seatpan to the aluminum mounting plate to help secure the bolts so it sits the thickness of that plate plus velcro above the frame and the seatpan runs parallel to the frame. The seat is VERY fast though... It won it's first race last Sunday after less than an hour of road testing. Met the power/speed design goals on the M5 and it's not even tuned in yet.

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« Last Edit: Aug 14^th, 2013, 10:57pm by goatstick »

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AustinSkater Posts: 465	Re: 26/26 vs 26/20 Reply #37 - Aug 15^th, 2013, 5:27am Quote from goatstick on Aug 14^th, 2013, 10:55pm: The seat is VERY fast though... It won it's first race last Sunday after less than an hour of road testing. Somehow I doubt that the seat didn't have a little help, but if it did it on it's own then I need one of those seats.
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goatstick

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Re: 26/26 vs 26/20
Reply #38 - Aug 15^th, 2013, 5:51am

Quote from AustinSkater on Aug 15^th, 2013, 5:27am:

Somehow I doubt that the seat didn't have a little help, but if it did it on it's own then I need one of those seats.

It came pretty close to doing it on it's own. :^) I'd like for the engine to take more credit but if you saw my power log, I think you'd agree with me. :^( Too many chronic injuries caused in part by the poor seats that come on these bikes which is why I started working on my own. That race was the first time in a couple of years I had no seat-related pain during a race. Hopefully I can start real recovery now and get back up to power. It did trash one of my quads pushing a good headwind the last 5 miles of the race but that's good because I was actually able to work it hard enough to do that.

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goatstick

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Re: 26/26 vs 26/20
Reply #39 - Aug 18^th, 2013, 7:23pm

Quote from FlyingLaZBoy on Aug 13^th, 2013, 11:09am:

(notice he is talking >20mph speed ranges)

Speaking of 20mph... Goal this year is to get my old 650 CA2 set up so my wife can generally ride it at 20mph. She's no powerhouse but she's a steady rider. My daughter rides my old Corsa and she can cruise for quite a while at 20-22mph with how I have that set up. There are a lot of things one can do to improve the speed/power ratio on modern stickbikes and I think that 20mph for the average rider isn't asking too much. It only took about 110 watts to do 20mph and 200 watts to do 25.5mph on my old CA2-700 and I can make a CA2-700 faster than that with what I know now. By far, the main thing is to clean up the turbulence below and under the seat.

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Monkeywrangler22

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Re: 26/26 vs 26/20
Reply #40 - Aug 18^th, 2013, 10:37pm

Oh? Do tell! How does one clean up the turbulence to get that dramatic a speed increase at 110w? I'm not being sarcastic. I really want to know, so I can go faster at my meager 87w avg output. To get a sustainable 7mph increase for me would be like the grail. I'd be happy with a sustainable 3 or 4mph increase.

Quote from goatstick on Aug 18^th, 2013, 7:23pm:

Quote from FlyingLaZBoy on Aug 13^th, 2013, 11:09am:

(notice he is talking >20mph speed ranges)

Speaking of 20mph... Goal this year is to get my old 650 CA2 set up so my wife can generally ride it at 20mph. She's no powerhouse but she's a steady rider. My daughter rides my old Corsa and she can cruise for quite a while at 20-22mph with how I have that set up. There are a lot of things one can do to improve the speed/power ratio on modern stickbikes and I think that 20mph for the average rider isn't asking too much. It only took about 110 watts to do 20mph and 200 watts to do 25.5mph on my old CA2-700 and I can make a CA2-700 faster than that with what I know now. By far, the main thing is to clean up the turbulence below and under the seat.

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Rat Rider

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Re: 26/26 vs 26/20
Reply #41 - Aug 19^th, 2013, 8:14am

Quote from goatstick on Aug 14^th, 2013, 10:55pm:

Quote from Rat Rider on Aug 14^th, 2013, 3:00pm:

Whoa, hang on - am I reading this correctly? Your 700c Carbon Aero is lower with the new seat than the 650 w/ the standard carbon hard shell? That is a game changer.

I haven't tried the production seat as I haven't built a std stickbike rib version of it yet but the last experimental seat was and I expect this one will be also. Next seat off of the production molds will be a stickbike seat and it will be going on a 650 CA2. I sold the 700 CA2 so can't check that out but can give a seat height for the 650 when it is mounted. You velcro the seatpan to the aluminum mounting plate to help secure the bolts so it sits the thickness of that plate plus velcro above the frame and the seatpan runs parallel to the frame. The seat is VERY fast though... It won it's first race last Sunday after less than an hour of road testing. Met the power/speed design goals on the M5 and it's not even tuned in yet.

The only nit-pick I have with my 20lb. RANS Rifle is the height of the seat. I would love to squeeze an inch or so off the height.

I would be willing to let you experiment. Smiley

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goatstick

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Re: 26/26 vs 26/20
Reply #42 - Aug 19^th, 2013, 11:14am

Quote from Monkeywrangler22 on Aug 18^th, 2013, 10:37pm:

Oh? Do tell! How does one clean up the turbulence to get that dramatic a speed increase at 110w? I'm not being sarcastic. I really want to know, so I can go faster at my meager 87w avg output. To get a sustainable 7mph increase for me would be like the grail. I'd be happy with a sustainable 3 or 4mph increase.

You could do as I did and spend several years of r&d - a lot of time, effort and money to get you there. It sounds like a good starting point would be to first improve your rolling resistance. If that's on smooth roads and not boulder-seal it should be able to do better (my old trike does better). I don't know what bike you ride but 13mph at 110 watts appears to be quite a bit of rolling resistance. Once you get up around 15mph then look into how you can improve your power output. Again, I don't know your particulars but there might be a number of things you can do to the bike or seat to improve that. Try to determine what is restricting your power output and work on fixing those things.

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goatstick

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Re: 26/26 vs 26/20
Reply #43 - Aug 19^th, 2013, 11:15am

Quote from Rat Rider on Aug 19^th, 2013, 8:14am:

I would be willing to let you experiment. Smiley

Maybe we could work something out... :^)

To get an idea of how the new RailGun seat might fit, look at my old CA2 experimental seat http://synthetictransport.com/spsbike/ and how it fits up against the frame. Then take a look at the RailGun seat http://synthetictransport.com/railgun/ and notice how pointed the front of the seat is. That allows your legs a lot more room to reach down to the ground. I'll be building a couple of RailGun seats for a CA2-650 and a Corsa-650 and then for a CA2-700, hopefully starting the first of sept. so can check measurements and fit then.

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« Last Edit: Aug 20^th, 2013, 8:53am by goatstick »

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Rat Rider Recumbents Across Texas Posts: 147	Re: 26/26 vs 26/20 Reply #44 - Aug 20^th, 2013, 2:34pm The seat looks very refined for such an early iteration. Well done!
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