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GP2CLE (and back again - a Hobbit's tale) (Read 6584 times)
evblazer
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Re: GP2CLE (and back again - a Hobbit's tale)
Reply #45 - Apr 23rd, 2008, 7:38am
 
The only place I find it mentioned is on the lsr google group
http://groups.google.com/group/Talk2LSR/browse_thread/thread/84508fcc2d0ef417/fb e6b56c133bf0f8?lnk=gst&q=liability#fbe6b56c133bf0f8
Which I mean really. We'd need to have had a crystal ball to known to have looked there before the ride. If Bill Fox wants to have special rules, if he can at all, he needs to make it clearly stated in every communication and every form that a person can get for his rides. RUSA needs to make it clear also that all owners can make up their own rules and to really make sure they make it clear that owners can have special rules on all their forms and pages also.  
That is all pretty silly though. RUSA should be standard like you said unless there are special rules needed due to State or Local laws.
 
edited due to my brain not functioning.
 
 
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« Last Edit: Apr 23rd, 2008, 7:43am by evblazer »  

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Killer Bee
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Re: GP2CLE (and back again - a Hobbit's tale)
Reply #46 - Apr 23rd, 2008, 7:39am
 
Greg ,I like it. I basically said the same thing in my e-mail to Edward. I was never told that we had to have a hard copy waiver signed & returned to the route owner before the ride.
 
And I also mentioned the lack of uniformity between the route owners on his issue. Essential ,we're being penalized for their lack of consistency on the waiver issue. Fix this & we wouldn't be discussing this right now ,especially when this issue occurred last year.
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Re: GP2CLE (and back again - a Hobbit's tale)
Reply #47 - Apr 23rd, 2008, 8:17am
 
Greg (et all) - your text is exactly what needs to be said.  Additionally, and my next statement is directed primarily at Nelson as the sponsor of this particular Permanent...
 
Nelson - Whilie we all certainly want to put this issue to finalization, here's a suggestion, and what I believe to be the "key" piece of documented supportive evidence (since Edward is an Attorney).  If Bill didn't specifically mandate all riders must sign the waiver and return the signed waiver to him, prior to the ride, then Bill, nor Edward can withhold awarding the ride to eveyone since the RUSA rules do not mandate this requirement.
 
Nelson my suggestion to you as the ride sponsor, is to send an e-mail to Edward (and even copy Bill and all of us).  Specifically state that in Bill's approval e-mail to you with the documents attached, BILL DID NOT mention the waiver requirement for pre-signatures from all riders. I'm sure Edward would/should agree that each LSR member is not required to read the posts on the forum where Bill and others discussed this last year.  The only "true rules, are what is in the RUSA bylaws.  That is the undisputed truth  Grin
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Re: GP2CLE (and back again - a Hobbit's tale)
Reply #48 - Apr 23rd, 2008, 8:24am
 
I found this older post of LSR's forum(dated Jan 3,2008) from Bill Fox regarding this subject.
 
 
 
Subject: Guidelines for the New Year on my Permanents
 
There's been quite a flurry of discussion lately on the RUSA list for
Permanent owners and RBAs regarding waivers and liability.  With the
start of the New Year and the recent introduction of Jorge's most
excellent Texas Permanent Clearinghouse Website (http://colourprep.com/
cycling/perms/index.php), I thought the time was right to clearly
communicate my expectations for those wishing to participate in the
Permanents I manage.
 
#1 - All participants must be a current RUSA member.  I will not
accept requests from those with "pending" memberships.  My routes are
available all year, so there's plenty of time to ride them once you
have (or re-activate) your membership.  If you ride with a group, it
is in your interest to ensure everyone has a current RUSA number.
Should I happen to discover that a non-RUSA member rode with the
group, I will disqualify the entire group.
 
#2 - I will be STRICTLY following RUSA's Rules for Riders and RUSA's
Rules for Permanent Riders. It is my understanding that RUSA currently
only requires one receipt per group as proof of passage. If you arrive
at a control with a group and do NOT get a receipt, you must indicate
on your card who will have the receipt for that control.  If you
arrive solo at a control and lose that receipt, consider it training
mileage.  Also, please note that I must receive completed Permanent
cards within 10 days of completion.
 
#3 - I will now require having a physical waiver in hand from each
rider BEFORE the start of the ride.  Waivers for all my routes are
available at the Texas Permanents Website, as well as the Files
section (http://groups.google.com/group/Talk2LSR/files) of this
Group.  I am also quite happy to send one upon request.  There were
too many times last year when the waiver for the group was not
returned promptly, risking the validation for everyone.
 
#4 - I will assess the $5 ride fee UNLESS you agree to the following:
     a.  You will be responsible for printing the cue sheet and
control card I send you.
     b.  You include a self addressed, stamped envelope so that I can
promptly return your validated card.
 
I fully expect there will be some that find the above expectations
unduly harsh, restrictive, and unfair.  Believe it or not, I'm
somewhat sympathetic to that viewpoint.  However, as the region that
has the most Permanent participation in RUSA (in 2007, of the ~1500
Permanents Results reported to RUSA, LSR rode ~425, nearly 4 times as
many as any other club), I think it is incumbent upon us to set a
standard that is above reproach and can deliver results that can
withstand the closest scrutiny.
 
I'm happy to address any questions or concerns.   Please know that my
intent is not to make it difficult to ride one of my permanents, but
to guarantee the validity of it once you finish.
 
Bill
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Kwijybow
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Re: GP2CLE (and back again - a Hobbit's tale)
Reply #49 - Apr 23rd, 2008, 9:42am
 
I just sent Edward the email below:
 
 
Hi Edward,  
 
I'm including the email exchanges I had with Bill up to the notification that  
you received as well.  I didn't see anything in there that made me think that I  
had to do anything differently than I did when I rode this route the previous  
year, so I can say I didn't just miss his instructions about the waiver.  I have  
since found a post he put on the LSR board, but I do not and have not read all  
those posts, and certainly had not read it prior to this permanent.  If I had I  
would have chosen another permanent route and not bothered Bill.  
 
Here is the email starting with my orginal request and his reply, and his  
sending me the documentation after receiving my mailed waiver.  Last year when I  
rode this route I had faxed it to him, and had included the waiver for the  
additional rider with our cards when we were through exactly as this year.  If  
Bill is going to change his requirements I feel he should have made it more  
clear in the initial email response to my request to ride the route, and not  
count on people reading the LSR forum posts.  The emails are in reverse  
chronological order:  
 
 
 
 
 
Please find attached the cue and card for the GP2CLE permanent.  If you have  
previously ridden this route, please note that the course has changed due to new  
road construction.  Most importantly, the far point control has been moved  
further north to the intersection of Nolan River Road and FM-4 (past the high  
school).  
 
Let me know if you have any questions or concerns.  
 
Bill  
 
 
Open Attachment GP2CLE Cue.xls  
 
Open Attachment GP2CLE Permanent Card - NR4-12.pdf  
 
 
 
 
 
 
I'll need a signed waiver (http://tinyurl.com/2ny62t) in hand before releasing  
the cards and cue.  Catch up with me this weekend or mail it.  If you have  
ridden this route before, be aware that the route has changed due to new road  
development.  Most importantly, the far control is now north of the high school  
at the corner of FM4 and Nolan River Road.  
 
Bill  
 
 
----- Original Message ----  
From: "kwijybow@tx.rr.com" <kwijybow@tx.rr.com>  
To: billfox@sbcglobal.net  
Cc: ray.torrey: verizon.com <ray.torrey@verizon.com>  
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 11:23:57 AM  
Subject: GP2CLE Permanet 04/12/2008 0800  
 
Hi Bill,  
 
  Ray and I would like to ride this 4/12 starting at 0800 if you don't mind.  
Let me know what you need ( i.e. faxed waver etc).  
 
Thanks,  
Nelson.  
 
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Killer Bee
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Re: GP2CLE (and back again - a Hobbit's tale)
Reply #50 - Apr 23rd, 2008, 8:26pm
 
Nelson , now that's what I call a smoking gun. I understand Edward Robinson is an attorney. Let's put that e-mail that you posted in context he could understand.
 
 
Nelson says in court..."Mr Counselor .,let me present Exhibit "A"(his e-mail to Bill Fox) !!   The judge's gavel slams down "Case closed"! "The state awards Mr. Ralls ,etal $1 million in compensatory damages"(sorry ,I got carried away with the last paragraph).
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Re: GP2CLE (and back again - a Hobbit's tale)
Reply #51 - Apr 28th, 2008, 10:43pm
 
results validated!
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Re: GP2CLE (and back again - a Hobbit's tale)
Reply #52 - Apr 28th, 2008, 10:51pm
 
Yes. Thanks to  Nelson & Ray for their help in this matter.  I want to say a lot more about the route owner ,but why bother? I just won't ride his routes. This is water under the bridge.
 
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Re: GP2CLE (and back again - a Hobbit's tale)
Reply #53 - Apr 29th, 2008, 6:05am
 
Steve, you're right... mission accomplished   Cool
 
99% of the LSR and Randonnuering community are awesome.  They are like family because in this sport, we really have to "take care of our own".  
 
Edward came to the correct conclusion, and I personally have to agree with his "audit" of our next Perm, because I know that each rider is responsible for acquiring receipts from each control.  Unfortunetly, there are dishonest people, and this is the only way to ensure 100% of the route is ridden by each rider.
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