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https://rbentonline.org/YaBB.pl General Category >> Technical >> What I lost moving from the Hill Country https://rbentonline.org/YaBB.pl?num=1397529169 Message started by goatstick on Apr 14th, 2014, 9:32pm |
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Title: What I lost moving from the Hill Country Post by goatstick on Apr 14th, 2014, 9:32pm Thought I'd pass this little bit of info along. I grew up in central Tx and lived nw of San Antonio for over 20 years. Much of that time I lived on well water that rated a 34 on the natl hardness scale of 0-10. Had to filter the sediment out but was excellent water with plenty of calcium and magnesium, both of which are required for muscles to work properly. Calcium is required for muscles to contract and magnesium for them to relax. The calcium part I knew about but I didn't know at the importance of magnesium. When we moved to Fl, I (recently) found that both calcium and magnesium are pretty much filtered out of the city water supply. About 9 months after we moved, I started dropping power. I thought it was just due to age, then last year it abruptly plummeted. I have always been very, very flexible yet I was suddenly almost rigid. Nothing I did improved the issues or power and it just kept getting worse. This year's Sebring was the worst performance I have ever done there and I reaiized there was something really wrong with me, not just age related. So I started reading and talking and studying. Discovered the importance of magnesium and how cyclists are particularly susceptible to magnesium-depletion. The symptoms of magnesium deficiency mapped exactly to my symptoms and vice versa. So I searched more about how to solve the problem and started in with the solution. Took me a few weeks to find what started working for me but it did. Almost immediately I felt more relaxed. The knots in my muscles started relaxing and I was finally able to start breaking things up and gaining more flexibility and power. Did a couple of time trials the past few weeks were it was clear I was coming back. Sunday a week ago I did the 168-mile Cross-Fl ride and was beat only by Hannon-the-Cannon in his Milan racing velo by only about 15 minutes. We traded for first all the way until the last ~25 miles into a hard headwind and I watched him motor off. Primarily because I mis-mixed my fuel (I realized later) and ran low on protein after about 6 hours. Yesterday I did the annual 61-mile Spring Classic which has a lot of the really fast locals show up for a hammer-down ride in pretty windy conditions. Last year I pulled about 45 miles of the ride but was struggling quite a bit towards the end. This year I started out a bit weak still from X-Fl but after 20 miles things loosened up and I just kept getting faster, stronger and more comfortable as the ride progressed. At the 45 mile mark the fast guys (only 6 left at this point) finally asked me to bring it down a notch and several times after that I had to soft-pedal to let them recover and hook back up. My average power was basically the same as all but the two guys who spent the most time on my wheel. Past the first 20 miles I was averaging about 250 watts except when I had to roll it back so they could stay on and won all of the bridge sprints hands down. I'm evidently coming back. Is good to not feel so old and weak again. So if you are having trouble making power because you muscles aren't fully releasing and can't get them to stretch out as they used to, maybe check into adding magnesium to your diet. BTW, as I have heard from a number of sources, adding more magnesium has managed to curb my sweet tooth. Spiced food (without sugar) tastes so much better than before so have drastically cut down my sugar intake. |
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Title: Re: What I lost moving from the Hill Country Post by FlyingLaZBoy on Apr 15th, 2014, 12:22pm Excellent info, Kent!!!! |
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Title: Re: What I lost moving from the Hill Country Post by goatstick on Apr 15th, 2014, 6:11pm Funny thing. Before I discovered the cause of my power loss I had discussed it with a number of older local riders and they didn't say anything. Afterwards, I mentioned my solutions and most of them said "Yes, I've been doing that for several years!" Evidently too much competition around here. They don't want to give up their tricks. :^) If you spend a lot of time on a bike, you might discover that you can't ingest enough to keep up with what you are sweating out. In that case you might want to apply it externally (http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2011/10/why-i-slather-my-body-with-magnesium-oil-after-every-hard-workout/) also. There dosen't appear to be a big health hazard to taking a fair amount orally though it is somewhat self-limiting as your body will tell you very quickly when you are taking too much. |
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Title: Re: What I lost moving from the Hill Country Post by aikigreg on Apr 15th, 2014, 8:36pm I thought the worst thing was losing your best riding buddy! |
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Title: Re: What I lost moving from the Hill Country Post by goatstick on Apr 15th, 2014, 8:51pm I didn't lose her, She moved out here when I did... Oh, wait. You mean my grumpiest ridin' buddy? I'm still waiting for him to come out and help me drag the tri guys around at 32mph in his fancy new M5 RailGun. I pulled a 30mph 5k TT and a 28mph 10k TT recently in mine. I'm expecting him to be riding my wheel. But he better not wait too long, I have a new guy working his way up to staying on my wheel. He's doing better every race. |
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Title: Re: What I lost moving from the Hill Country Post by FlyingLaZBoy on Apr 16th, 2014, 6:57am Bone density loss is a real problem in long-distance (and professional) cycling, related to "sweating it out"... it's one reason there are so many broken collarbones, etc. in crashes. Neighbor Daniel (SquareCorners) recently discovered his bone density is very low, and is doing some medical treatments to try to correct it -- and is getting away from really long endurance cycling rides. |
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Title: Re: What I lost moving from the Hill Country Post by goatstick on Apr 16th, 2014, 8:18am Yes. Bone density and magnesium... I didn't want to bring too much into this discussion but thanks for mentioning this. One of the main supplements I use is made by Calm (there in Austin on Shoal Creek). You can get just magnesium powder or with added calcium. We tend to get a lot more calcium in our diet and there is evidence that too much calcium is bad for both magnesium intake as well as bone density, whereas magnesium is good for increasing bone density. as this (http://www.nutritionalmagnesium.org/bone-density-osteoporosis-and-calcium-magnesium/) article suggests. It also touches on the topic I hinted at regarding sugar vs. magnesium. We used to get much of our magnesium from green vegetables but it appears that in many farms the magnesium has been mostly leached from the soil and is not replentished so we don't get nearly as much as we did say 50 years ago. |
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Title: Re: What I lost moving from the Hill Country Post by rmillay on Apr 16th, 2014, 10:25am The same is true of micronutrients, also (molybdenum, manganese, vanadium, etc.). There may be more of those in your garden than in the fields in the California valley. But, truthfully, many of us don't eat the amount of fruits and veggies we should, and rely on supplements too much. I know I do. WARNING: DULL, TECHNICAL INFORMATION FOLLOWS Jay was asking about safe dosages of calcium and magnesium. As Kent implied, too much magnesium will tell fairly quickly. It's whats in that stuff some of us used to drink before getting a colonoscopy (now a different chemical is used). Milk of magnesia is a useful laxative, as well as for other home remedies. It's now in Rolaids, which some riders carry for cramp relief. It's in Hammer Endurolytes, too. The RDA is about half a gram. My supplement gives me a third of that. Us distance riders should probably get a bit more. I probably get enough calcium from milk and meat for my use, but people who don't like meat and milk have to pay more attention to intake. Vitamin D is also needed to utilize calcium properly; a modest intake of vitamin D and regular exposure of your skin to a few minutes of sunlight should take care of that. What does too much calcium do? That is, what does too much calcium circulating in your blood do, as we want plenty of it in our bones. Our bones act as a reservoir for calcium, so that when we don't absorb enough, the body takes it out of the bones--that's one cause of osteopenia and osteoporosis. Calcium is important in maintaining electrolyte balance balance inside and outside the cells, and, with magnesium, in efficient transfer of electric signals in the nerves, hence Kent's problems. Excess calcium doesn't collect on the walls of your blood vessels, like lime in your water pipes, but it may collect in arterial plaque, along with cholesterol, contributing to the loss of elasticity of the arteries. It may also collect damaged spots in muscles and connective tissue, causing bone spurs, bursitis, heart valve leakage, and other problems. So, yeah, keeping a consistent but moderate intake of your minerals is important for all of us. |
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Title: Re: What I lost moving from the Hill Country Post by aikigreg on Apr 16th, 2014, 11:23am Lol. I'm going to try and put it together this weekend. I finally have a Sunday free. I've got a waiting list of purple wanting a ride already. Unfortunately, until I finish getting this weight off that all these meds made me put on, sprinting to 30 is all I've got. goatstick wrote:
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Title: Re: What I lost moving from the Hill Country Post by goatstick on Apr 16th, 2014, 4:31pm aikigreg wrote:
I'm making a new seat with the new M5 frame mold assy for me so I can sell my current M5 RailGun seat to Jim D., who was T-boned on his M5 during Sebring this year. He just got his new frame and the bike back together. I have about 25 years on him so when he gets up to full power on the new seat I might not be able to outrun him anymore. He's really strong and if he can get everything worked out we are planning on going after some 2-man team records. We've been doing the 31 mile road part of the Lakeland Trail2Trail races the past two years and I've beat him both times but I likely will have to ramp it up to beat him this year! :^) Also need to work on getting my power up again to try to hold off Hannon in his Milan somehow. Thing is a guided missle and I will likely have to outcrank him by more than 100 watts to pull it off so I'll really be testing my magnesium supplements this year, but so far it's really been working. |
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Title: Re: What I lost moving from the Hill Country Post by aikigreg on Apr 16th, 2014, 5:59pm I keep trying to talk to him about his m5 build. I need someone to dull and cable my bike like he has done. Of course, speeds previously mentioned were on the carbent. I should be faster on the m5 |
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Title: Re: What I lost moving from the Hill Country Post by goatstick on Apr 16th, 2014, 6:08pm The M5 is certainly faster even under low power but it's a lot fast under more power and climbs significantly faster under power. I haven't ridden anything yet that does as well, and mounting the RailGun rib onto the M5 frame noticably improved climbing on top of what it already did. Unfortunately your RailGun seat doesn't do that so you just get "normally" fast. :^( So when will you get back to doing a 40k 240W avg power again like you did at TSTT that time? I still remember the look on your face when you saw that. |
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Title: Re: What I lost moving from the Hill Country Post by aikigreg on Apr 16th, 2014, 7:24pm About 50 pounds from now. :-) what I remember most is the tunnel vision, and how everything went dark those last few minutes. All I could see wad your back wheel. |
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Title: Re: What I lost moving from the Hill Country Post by goatstick on Apr 16th, 2014, 10:51pm Fortunately for you I've installed a little marker in the center of my tailbox for you to aim at now so you won't have to watch my wheel. It's there so the roadies know where to stick their noses when trying to hang on. At least that what the fast ones tell me they do. I just know when I hear them starting to wheeze it's time to bring it down a notch. Though you will need to get your range bearings first. Last Saturday Billy (CA2) forgot my rear wheel extends a ways back past the tailbox and got his wheel hung up in mine when the tunnel vision started. He's a big guy and it really got my attention when he yanked my wheel almost out from under me. I was waiting for the crash but luckily there was no curb there and he ran off in the grass and didn't go down. Fabulous save. |
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Title: Re: What I lost moving from the Hill Country Post by FlyingLaZBoy on Apr 17th, 2014, 7:18am goatstick wrote:
Had a DF rider do that on Tuesday, when another clipped wheels -- he went off the side into the grass, falling on his right side... when he got up, he discovered the smashed banana in his rear pocket!!!! ;D |
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Title: Re: What I lost moving from the Hill Country Post by aikigreg on Apr 17th, 2014, 11:05am Maybe he was just REALLY happy to see you. [smiley=laugh.gif] FlyingLaZBoy wrote:
Had a DF rider do that on Tuesday, when another clipped wheels -- he went off the side into the grass, falling on his right side... when he got up, he discovered the smashed banana in his rear pocket!!!! ;D [/quote] |
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Title: Re: What I lost moving from the Hill Country Post by jayg on Apr 21st, 2014, 12:06pm Took one 500 mg magnesium oxide tablet each night for three successive days. On the morning of day four, my body said: "Hey, you are ODing on magnesium" (won't go into details). Did some checking and found I already ingest a fair amount of magnesium in my diet. At my current 100 to 125 miles per week riding, probably don't need any supplementation. Maybe I'll try 250 mg the night before I do 50 + mile pay rides, during warm and hot weather. Don't know why my performance is really low, sometimes, during cool weather. Maybe I need to take in more calories. |
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Title: Re: What I lost moving from the Hill Country Post by goatstick on Apr 21st, 2014, 12:45pm Just being low on power doesn't mean you need more magnesium. It's when your muscles can't release and you are becoming more rigid and inflexible than you normally are (or should be). If you are riding more than about three hours, yes, you almost certainly need calories. There are several stages your body goes through in burning different types of fuel, from what is easiest to convert to ATP to what is hardest. When you burn through readily-available fuel and keep going, you eventually get down to where you start burning your own muscles as a last resort. You don't want that. I'd say that if you are riding for more than two hours at a moderate pace, or less than that at a hard pace, you should be taking in at *least* 150-200 calories per hour (people vary substantially). That means primarily carbs with electrolytes, protein and complex sugars in the right amounts. Easiest when mixed with your water. |
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Title: Re: What I lost moving from the Hill Country Post by jayg on Apr 21st, 2014, 1:44pm goatstick wrote:
Did a 3-hour, hilly pay ride Saturday before last when temperatures were in the high 60's. No problems with power, but suffered cramps in the upper muscles of both legs when I was cruising around town, waiting for friends to complete the ride. Had to get off the bike and walk. The main problem I have occurs during cool weather. Sometimes when I start riding, just after breakfast, I have little power in my legs, and wind up riding behind my fellow riders. Many times my legs get stronger, after I ride a couple of 10.2-mile lake laps, but sometimes not. |
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Title: Re: What I lost moving from the Hill Country Post by goatstick on Apr 21st, 2014, 2:25pm Cramps usually mean you are low on electolytes. Lactic acid is produced by your muscles to be used as fuel as the last resort I mentioned. Maybe you ran out of easier fuel and were eating your muscles towards the end of the ride. Cramps can also uccur because you are taking in too much sugar and your stomach backs up and refuses to accept any more water or fuel thus restricting the intake of electrolytes. Need more info to suggest anything else. |
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Title: Re: What I lost moving from the Hill Country Post by jayg on Apr 21st, 2014, 4:04pm goatstick wrote:
The second scenario must have been the cause of the cramps. I ate bananas at the first two rest stops and treats with a sugary filling sandwiched between ice cream cone-like material at the last two stops. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. |
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Title: Re: What I lost moving from the Hill Country Post by kenbent6 on Apr 21st, 2014, 4:28pm Respond all you want J, make excuses, but never, never consider AGE!!! [smiley=deadhorsebeat.gif] |
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Title: Re: What I lost moving from the Hill Country Post by goatstick on Apr 21st, 2014, 6:03pm jayg wrote:
I did that at the beginning of the first Hill Country 600 and paid for it the rest of the race. Didn't start recovering until the last 30 miles of the race so did almost 300 miles fighting severe leg cramps. Never made that mistake again... kenbent6 wrote:
I get a bit of a kick hearing all the youngsters complaining and giving all sorts of excuses for why they got trounced by a 60-yrd old, especially on the climbs. |
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Title: Re: What I lost moving from the Hill Country Post by Monkeywrangler22 on Apr 22nd, 2014, 12:56pm Dave needs to get in here and post to you goatstick. He is a horrible cramper! He take a mag supplement, refuels on rides with Clif Gel, or Clif bars, runs Nuun tabs in his water bottles, and also takes the Hammer Endurolytes. None of it helps. Now I will say the mag pills have gotten rid of his night time leg cramps, which is a benefit I guess, but a minor one. (Note, Dave is an insulin dependent T2 diabetic) |
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Title: Re: What I lost moving from the Hill Country Post by goatstick on Apr 22nd, 2014, 6:49pm Dave likely needs to see a specialist. I have a hard time figuring out what's wrong with a reasonably healthy guy (me). |
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Title: Re: What I lost moving from the Hill Country Post by dd5339 on Apr 22nd, 2014, 7:34pm Yep, like Monkeywrangler says I cramp up if someone just looks at me cross-eyed on a ride. I use/used Hammer Enduralytes, Nunn tabs, Gatoraid G2, and even plain old water for fluid replacement. I usually push enough fluids that I stop and water every tree, bush, and weedy spot for the first 20-30 miles. Calorie replacement is usually Cliff bars or Cliff gels with mixed nuts for protein. I'll eat fresh fruit and PB&J sandwiches on organized rides if available. I used to use Cliff Roks when I could get them as they had a nice balance of carbs and proteins but they were discontinued. I've found one surefire cure for on ride cramps however and that is pickle juice, preferably zesty dill pickle juice. I've been known to freeze a small gatoraid bottle of it and sip from it during stops, nasty, but it works. I'd love to find a way to beat the cramps for good other than riding around with a bottle of pickles that is. Goatstick, what drink mix are you running to give you the calorie and electrolyte replacement? I'm wide open to suggestions as I am desperate to get back to some longer miles. Semper Fi |
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Title: Re: What I lost moving from the Hill Country Post by rmillay on Apr 22nd, 2014, 8:56pm Pickle juice contains both salt and acetic acid. I don't know why it works for some people and not for others, but I wonder if the acetic acid has something to do with it. Some are more susceptible to cramps than others. I rarely get them, and the usual remedies don't help me. But when I get them it's doing something I don't usually do, so stay in shape, prepare thoroughly, and experiment. |
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Title: Re: What I lost moving from the Hill Country Post by goatstick on Apr 22nd, 2014, 9:58pm dd5339 wrote:
Quote:
If this is all it takes to stop cramps, I would suggest that you need to take a hard look at your diet, on and off the bike. Also, Cliff bars, etc. really aren't (imo) that great a source of fuel. They are a mainly an expensive convenience. Most of us who do distance racing/training have tried pretty much all of the convenience foods like that and gave them up. Pick up almost any book at the library or bookstore about cycle training to get some good ideas about a proper diet for cycliing. For on-bike fuel, I'd recommend you take a look at liquid diets. If you are riding something like 250+ miles a week, then maybe it's time to take a look at the liquid diets more closely. You can do it yourself (fairly cheaply), buy it ready-made (fairly expensively), or do a mix somewhere in-between. On the low end of a liquid diet, you could buy glucose ploymers in bulk (maltodextrin) for carbohydrates (not as sweet as std glucose), whey protein powder, various sources for electrolytes (like Emergen-C). Mid-range, you can get a possibly better mix of glucose polymers in products such as Carbo-Pro and mix the others. Expensively, you can try the Hammer or Infinit products. It sounds to me as though you really need to get your everyday diet fixed first and you may not need the other stuff, especially for rides less than 100 miles. I have a fairly strict diet which I actually really like, but I've spent a number of years working on it. In my case I'm, a celiac so had to completely cut out all gluten products. It now appears that gluten foods (especially pastas) are not all that great for cyclists as they appear to require almost as much energy for many of us to burn as they provide so not much net gain. If they are so difficult to digest, what might that suggest? Except for carb-loading, very simply: http://ultracycling.com/sections/articles/ http://www.livestrong.com/article/259070-nutrition-plan-for-cycling/ http://www.livestrong.com/article/557536-the-truth-about-gluten-allergies/ http://www.livestrong.com/article/557977-the-worst-fitness-advice-of-all-time/ (cooked oatmeal is a great early breakfast before a ride. I throw in an egg, a half-teaspoon of magnesium powder and a little bit of honey) I have a few issues with this one but it's generally fairly decent advice: http://www.eatingfree.com/newtrition/nutripedia/did-you-know/nutrition-for-endurance-cycling.aspx On bike, I'd look for nutrition but not sweets. Something that is somewhat bland in terms of sweetness. Something your stomach won't reject when it's tired and overworked. People think I'm crazy but after a hard 24hr race where I'm taking in ~240 Calories per hour, my stomach is the most tired thing in my body. It feels completely worn out from having to process so much fuel for so long, and I'm feeding it about the easiest-to-digest stuff there is. |
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Title: Re: What I lost moving from the Hill Country Post by dd5339 on Apr 23rd, 2014, 5:48am Goatstick, So you mean Chocolate Frosted Sugar Bombs is a bad breakfast? Just kidding... Vicky would never let me have something that tasty.. Or bad for me. Thanks, looks like I have some reading and studying to do. Semper Fi |
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