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rbent Forum
https://rbentonline.org/YaBB.pl General Category >> rbent Lobby >> climbing https://rbentonline.org/YaBB.pl?num=1239583335 Message started by goatstick on Apr 12th, 2009, 7:42pm |
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Title: climbing Post by goatstick on Apr 12th, 2009, 7:42pm A bit hesitant to post yet another climbing thread, but maybe this might be a little bit interesting. I live at the top of a hill and have up to 18% grade switchbacks. Except on a mtn bike with about a 22-tooth chainring, this climb, which I have to do almost every day, has for years *always* provided a bit of grief to my daily rides. Almost half the time after a long hard ride, I just get off and walk the bike up it as I don't want to have to deal with having to crank enough power to continually lift the front wheel off the ground time after time. Well, apparently no more... After the HC600, I took a couple of weeks off to let my ankles and tendons recover, then last week, while still having tendon problems, I went for a few rides. Riding back home, while even still not back up to power with my leg muscles, the hill was *nothing*. I began wondering who switched chainrings or gears when I wasn't looking, the effect was so dramatic. Even on the rides, I was climbing moderate grades several mph faster than I used to, with the feel of using a lot less power. While I always notice a difference after a long, fast ride, I wasn't expecting this much difference in climbing. The other thing is that while the power to lift the front wheel is still right there, rarely am I actually lifting it anymore. I think that the difference might be that somehow I'm generating more constant torque without having to muscle the bike up the hill. Has anyone else seen this? Sounds like if you want to climb a lot faster and easier, you just need to go on a really long ride with lots of hills. :^) |
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Title: Re: climbing Post by bikerteam on Apr 13th, 2009, 8:38am Kent - how far from the start of the HC600 do you live? I'm not real familiar with that area. I've been to the Grey Moss Inn many times, but never driven the short jaunt farther south to Helotes. Having crewed for JS at HC600, I don't remember any 18% hills real close to the start. You live in a great training area. I love riding in the hill country, and anywhere west of Bandera. What size front and rear chain rings do you ride with? Personal question... I'll try to ask in a nice way. What age group do you race in? I'm extremely impressed with your time on the HC600, and don't believe we've heard your name before in the faster Texas bent rider category. We crossed paths several times prior to the start of the HC600 race, but since all the racers had their "game face" on, we didn't want to interrupt the pre-race activities. While riding in a 200k this Saturday, Steve Petty who was part of JS crew (along with his wife Peggy) asked if we'd heard anything about your post race recovery. So thanks for this post, it's great to hear how well you're doing. Lastly, how do you pronounce Helotes? |
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Title: Re: climbing Post by FlyingLaZBoy on Apr 13th, 2009, 9:08am I have admittedly never encountered anything like an 18% grade switchback, and think it sounds like an EXCELLENT candidate location for walking up... especially at the end of a long day on the bike [smiley=thumbsup.gif] It also sounds like a situation that calls for a 24T / 34T gear combo, if one were to tackle it... When you're talking about "powering up and lifting the front wheel," are you in your lowest gear at the time, or do you still have a couple left? Seems like keeping your cadence as high as possible would do nothing but help, trying to keep in the "spinning" region. Granted, you gotta do what you've gotta do! |
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Title: Re: climbing Post by goatstick on Apr 13th, 2009, 10:29am bikerteam wrote:
I live almost exactly 1 mile away and about 500 feet up from the start and near the end of Scenic Loop Rd. There are a number of much harder hills in the immediate vicinity than mine - Tower Rd, which is a little less grade but straight up, and then there's a long 20%+ grade killer to the Hindu temple just down the road from me. I don't know of anyone who has made it to the top of that one on a road bike. I have never even seriously considered attempting it. I run a 30-39-53 and a Shimano XT M770 11-32 cassette. I'd race in the 50-60 group, though the hc600 was my first bicycle race (I raced motorcycles when I was younger :^) I ride with several guys who race road bikes who are a little younger than I and I was faster on a road bike (I commuted 32mi/day) but I'm quite a bit faster on the Corsa now, under all conditions once I get my legs warmed up. They are trying to get me to race with them but of course recumbents are an issue. I'm a bit busy this year but I told them I'd go for longer TTs if they could find some that I could enter - centuries and metrics. One of the crit riders says I'd be very competitive in the local TTs so I figure maybe it's worth checking out. Thanks for the concern. My ankles are still a bit swollen and the tendons still tender but I'm trying to take it easy and they are recovering well. The cramps really blew out the blood vessels in my lower shins. I was scooting around the house in a wheeled desk chair for a couple of days. :^) Really wish we could have met. Are any of you heading down to ESR's 'Bent Event this weekend? If the weather holds up we're riding up Sunday morning and back Monday. Helotes - There is argument as to whether it is Spanish or Indian in origin as it can be either, but is almost Hay-lo'-tes - He-lo'-tes, short 'e'. |
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Title: Re: climbing Post by goatstick on Apr 13th, 2009, 11:11am FlyingLaZBoy wrote:
Yes. It's one thing to tackle this hill every now and then but every time you come back from a ride tended to get wearisome. The 18% grade is a short, flared up entry to a sharp right turn and the road is highly peaked to handle water runoff but it's 15% leading up to that. So you have a steep flare combined with a really sharp, peaked right turn with moats on either side to take you out if you don't keep your line. Part of the reason I walked it before was because I had problems keeping from running off the road in the turn. But that's the other thing I gained since the race, I can make the turn with no difficulty also. Really weird. I ran a 30-42-53/11-25 on my carbon Roubaix before the Corsa and in 1st gear every slow pedal stroke would gently float the front wheel off the ground. Basically it was barely touching the ground, especially in that hard, steep corner. There is no real cadence possible on either bike. I've never taken a look but I'm probably turning 60rpm max on the Corsa with the 30-32 lowest gear, doing about 5mph. You have to just mash your way up the hill. I was joking with John S. about this after the race and he mentioned how fun it was on those hills to have the front wheel lift every stroke and set back down to one side or the other. I said 'yes', but I never thought it was all that much fun as one side or the other might mean off in the ditch for me. Speaking of falling over, about a week before the race I was powering up a short, steep grade out of a low water crossing at about 32mph and the bike just started to fall over. I was a little confused by this so backed off the power a bit and the front tire hit back down. Had never even considered the possibility of a power wheelie at over 30mph on this insane bike! A 24/34 would be great - where you climb more slowly than you can walk. I used to consider putting a 28 or such on the front just for this hill, but appears I waited long enough to not need it. |
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Title: Re: climbing Post by aikigreg on Apr 13th, 2009, 2:19pm The only wheel lifting I've ever experienced was on steep grades, but I always attributed it to having too much weight on the rear wheel. I've always stoppe at that point because it feels like you're about to fall off backwards and it's nearly impossible to unclip. On my lightning p-38 I've been up a 22% grade (very short) that did that, and it happened on an 18% on the carbent before I backed off. I think had I had a larger rear cassette (I've only got a 28) I may have been fine and been able to spin up the hill a little better. Helote is Spanish for corn, by the way. |
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Title: Re: climbing Post by goatstick on Apr 13th, 2009, 4:23pm aikigreg wrote:
Like you're about to be shot out of a cannon or sitting on the top of a rocket, right? :^) The first few times the front wheel lifts, it's a little scarey as it does feel like you're about to flip over backwards, but you get used to it. Having the bike fall over to the side is probably more likely than flipping over backwards. And yes, the problem with possibly needing to unclip is exacerbated when you are trying to make a sharp turn at the same time. I have a large frame with a carbon seat which places me lower and further forward than I would be with a Euromesh seat at the same recline angle. I bought it with a Euromesh seat but didn't have it so laid back. If I rode a Med frame which would place the CG much further back, that might be a problem. I had tried all different climbing techniques - closed vs open, etc. Before the race, the closed position, including where I would pull myself up by the bars to sit forward with my back off the seat, allowed me to be more stable in the turns, but it didn't really help as far as power goes. Now I just lay back and crank up the hill with no worries. Hey hey.. What I haven't mentioned is that that last 50 feet of my drive - up to the garage - is up to a 20% climbing bend on roadbase (limestone gravel with a chat filler to hold it in place). But I have a little flat spot just before that to gather a little speed so it isn't quite as difficult as long as I keep the roadbase packed down well and the rain hasn't just loosened it up. But I have to unclip at the *very* top - on a tiny rough concrete pad just inches before I bash into the garage door, so I've gotten really good at hammering, slamming on the brakes and throwing a foot off the clip and down so I don't crash or slide backwards down the hill, then carefully peeling myself off the bike without taking weight off the tires until I'm fully on one foot. Exiting the garage makes me think I'm riding out the back of an airplane with a parachute. I built the house - it's dug somewhat into the side of the hill, thus all the steep grades required to get there. Most people have trouble driving a car up or down my hill... http://www.texasescapes.com/SouthTexasTowns/Helotes-Texas.htm Apparently 'helotes' is also a native word having to do with wild turkey. No one knows exactly how the town got its name. While the corn reference is most likely, since the local farmers raised corn here and it was supplied to troops during the Texas Revolution, etc., the other story, which I can't remember well enough to post, has a bit of possible validity also. |
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Title: Re: climbing Post by Killer Bee on Apr 13th, 2009, 5:01pm Peggy & I rode with John Schillter during Hellweek, a route called "Take me to the River" ,the ride left Fredericksburg & travels down to Kerrville & back. The climb(from Kerrville) at mile 50+ was a 22-24% grade hill(according to John's Ergometer thingy), then we had another series of 20% grade climbs at about mile 60+ plus(with some rollers thrown in the middle for laughs). Keep in mind this was supposed to be a recovery ride for John after the Hill Country 600K race. The 22-24% grade was at least 1/2-3/4 mile in length. The other 20% hill was a mile or so. And for more laughs ,it was warm that day, at least in middle to upper 80's. John just laughed & said "this is supposed to be my recovery ride, 1.5 hour bike ride), well about 6 hours(80 miles+)later,we climb off the bikes. Those set of hills are the steepest hills that we've ridden. Oh ,there a route(I have forgotten its name, Ray Torrey would know it at Hellweek) ,that travels past the Enchanted rock. The climb is about 1 mile past Enchanted rock. I'm guessing it was mid teens. Then there's our LSR favorite N.Texas hill( around Mineral Wells)-Cherry Pie Hill. |
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Title: Re: climbing Post by goatstick on Apr 13th, 2009, 5:36pm Killer Bee wrote:
Do you still have the route sheet and can tell me what roads they were? I've ridden almost everything around there but there are still a few backroads I haven't been on. I'm familiar with the one on 965 just sw of Enchanted Rock. hellweek.com used to have the route descriptions I thought, but I can't find them now. |
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Title: Re: climbing Post by Killer Bee on Apr 13th, 2009, 7:43pm Yes, somewhere around home ,Peggy & I have the route sheets & I can let you know what roads had the hills & at what mileage. |
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Title: Re: climbing Post by aikigreg on Apr 14th, 2009, 9:30am I wish I could say I knew what makes a good climber. Having easy access to some good hills helps. I feel like I used to be a good strong rider on flats and on hills, but that it's slipped away and I can't quite get it back. I'm trying like heck, though. I'm still scouring around trying to find some long (miles long) 4-5% roads. I think doing those would help me gain aerobic capacity and some muscle strength, but at least I have some decent options fairly nearby, just nothing I can do after work. |
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Title: Re: climbing Post by goatstick on Apr 14th, 2009, 10:56am aikigreg wrote:
BTW, congratulations on the 10k miles. Do you have any ideas as to what got you fast before? I'm trying to figure out what does what. Before the ride to Florida last year I had gotten generally fast doing fast group rides of about 40-60 miles 2-3 times a week in relatively hilly terrain and averaging a century a month. I had been commuting ~32mi/day and averaging over 200mi/wk for several years which gave me a pretty solid base to do that from. The Florida ride didn't seem to really help much with my climbing though. Probably not enough hills (thankfully), but I lost another 10 lbs and my legs really leaned and strengthened. After the trip I did about 8 hard, fast centuries in 2 months in hilly terrain, which really bumped up my general speed and climbing, but it was after the race that the big improvement in climbing showed up. Kinda makes sense, but interesting to note that a lot of hard base miles seems to just get you ready to train for climbing, but doesn't really make you climb much faster. One of our group riders did some of those centuries with me after the trip and he really bumped up his pace. He did the LBJ100 last month, which is a pretty hilly route, started about 15 minutes after the lead group and passed everyone. We're trying to do more fast, hilly centuries as that generally seems to be the most reasonable way to get generally a lot faster. I need to bump up my training again or he'll start catching me soon. |
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Title: Re: climbing Post by Bud_Bent on Apr 14th, 2009, 11:50am aikigreg wrote:
Mark Metcalfe told me about a hill that's great for training. It's on Gifco Road, west of Hwy 67. It's over a mile and a half long, and never more than a 6% grade. It's a dead end road, so there's not much traffic. I'm trying to do hill repeats on it at least once a week. It's plain that I'm never going to be able to process enough oxygen to be much of a climber, but I can still better train what I do have. |
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Title: Re: climbing Post by goatstick on Apr 14th, 2009, 12:03pm Bud_Bent wrote:
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Title: Re: climbing Post by JS on Apr 15th, 2009, 5:42pm hi gals and guys, pretty darn nice forum you got going here! Training for climbing can be done with out having hills, I do it all the time down here in FL. The only hill I can get would be the wind. Interval's,,, the right kind of intervals can help you climb, combination of tempo, steady states and tension intervals can make you a good climber. Having a good coach that understands your goals will guide you to successful climbing and history on how you got there to remember down the road. Kent, the first time I was Heletoes I was at teh foot of your drive not knowing trying to find Hank's bike shop, small world. |
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Title: Re: climbing Post by bikerteam on Apr 15th, 2009, 7:36pm JS wrote:
Wow - the Infamous Mr. Schlitter is finally a member of our forum. Welcome John. For a relatively small group, we're very active. It was great reading your recent Heart of the South results. Congrats on an epic ride ;D I'm sure I speak for many on this forum, when I say we look forward to your active participation. side note: did you get a chance to watch the short videos I took of your HC600? Turn up the volume, your comments are priceless http://www.flickr.com/photos/22734648@N07/sets/72157615865486458/ Ray |
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Title: Re: climbing Post by goatstick on Apr 15th, 2009, 7:36pm JS wrote:
Thanks for the info and your encouragement. Even though I have ridden bikes most of my life, before a few months ago I had never even entertained the thought of doing any kind of bike racing, much less ultra races. Then these crazy people - Larry, George and Hank started telling me I could do it. I wouldn't normally listen to such apparent nonsense but I knew these people knew what they were talking about so I decided I needed to listen. And I am so glad I did. Thanks to all of you. I know I have a long ways to go and it's hard to get out of South Texas for these events, but I think maybe I'm hooked. Wish I could have been there to greet you when you were at the foot of my hill, but my daughter and I were in Florida hoping to see you and the rest of the Bacchetta crew there. Was really great to meet you. Katy and I are planning on riding to Long Island starting the end of May. Looks like about a 2000 mile ride. We're shooting to average 120 mile days. Want to ride along with us a ways? :^) I'm hoping that new CA2.0 frame will be at Hank's when we get back. Katy said that would be my reward for pedalling to Long Island with her! And yes, she gets the Corsa. |
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Title: Re: climbing Post by Killer Bee on Apr 15th, 2009, 7:47pm Yes, John welcome to Rbent. Kent the route that I referenced in a previous post with two tough climbs was on Stoneleigh road ,then there are three nice rollers to climb & descend. At the bottom of the 2nd roller is a quick right turn(still Stoneleigh) ,there's an old Schoolhouse on the left, we turned right onto RT 1341. The second tough climb of the day was on Bear Creek Rd. which becomes CP road. I hope that gives you a reference point. |
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Title: Re: climbing Post by goatstick on Apr 15th, 2009, 8:22pm Killer Bee wrote:
Ok. Stone-Leigh road just south of 1341. It's been about 16 years since I was there and I can't remember how steep that is. Was the road surface in good condition? We used to ride 1341 a few times a year - plus most of the way down 473 to 281 and back but there's getting to be a lot of traffic on 473 these days so don't go very far east on it much anymore. We rode up to Waring last Saturday and will probably again in a couple of weeks. I'll see if I can talk the group into taking a side trip to check out the top end of Stone-Leigh. I've been trying to get the group to ride up Old No 9 to the bat cave (old Fred'burg railroad tunnel) but am having trouble getting them to go that far. Maybe I can trick 'em into it... I suspected the other one was Bear Creek. Thanks |
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Title: Re: climbing Post by Bud_Bent on Apr 15th, 2009, 8:29pm JS wrote:
Welcome, John! We get quite a bit of wind training here, too. At least it sure seems that way. |
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Title: Re: climbing Post by Kwijybow on Apr 15th, 2009, 9:40pm Quote:
Well spoken Fartacus! [smiley=notworthy.gif] |
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Title: Re: climbing Post by bikerteam on Apr 16th, 2009, 7:08am Kent wrote:
I like the ride from Fredericksburg to Sisterdale, then across and up Old No 9. If you do, stop at the top of the bat cave and be sure to grab lunch at the really cool spot just to the right of the overlook. From there you can ride north, cut across to Old San Antonio Road and head back south towards your house. There are lots of road options in that area. |
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Title: Re: climbing Post by goatstick on Apr 16th, 2009, 8:45am bikerteam wrote:
I like the ride from Fredericksburg to Sisterdale, then across and up Old No 9. If you do, stop at the top of the bat cave and be sure to grab lunch at the really cool spot just to the right of the overlook. From there you can ride north, cut across to Old San Antonio Road and head back south towards your house. There are lots of road options in that area. [/quote] Yes. I've been riding those roads around there for 20 years. My favorite place to ride. Back in about '95 or so I was riding with a friend on #9. We came flying around a corner, surprised a wild turkey who took off into him, just high enough so he ducked his head so his helmet slid under the turkey's left wing. This of course prevented the wing from generating lift so the turkey was stuck to the helmet going the same speed flailing its wings, beating the guy like crazy. I was laughing so hard I almost fell off my bike. He of course slowed down and the turkey finally slid of the front and took off. BTW, 1376 from 290 to Sisterdale, while a great road, now has a lot of high-speed traffic on it like 473, so if you ride it, please be careful. 1376 south of 473 has long been problematic, but is really bad now. We used to own land just south of the Guadalupe off of 1376. Suggest you take Welfare-Waring, 474 or swing over to 289 if you want to head south from there, though it's new boulder-seal for a ways on 289. Welfare-Waring is fun - 'bowling green road' - drop off into the gutter there and you have trouble getting back out. :^) |
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Title: Re: climbing Post by JS on Apr 16th, 2009, 10:32am bikerteam wrote:
Wow - the Infamous Mr. Schlitter is finally a member of our forum. Welcome John. For a relatively small group, we're very active. It was great reading your recent Heart of the South results. Congrats on an epic ride ;D I'm sure I speak for many on this forum, when I say we look forward to your active participation. side note: did you get a chance to watch the short videos I took of your HC600? Turn up the volume, your comments are priceless http://www.flickr.com/photos/22734648@N07/sets/72157615865486458/ Ray[/quote] Ray, man it was hard to hear though that TT helment! I sounding older all the time, "the kid" Goggins is out for the rest of the year after 35 miles of HOS, he injured himself good. Was looking forward to watching his progress this year. Nice clips, I do not like 5 mph hills but the HOS had much tougher climbs then the 600km THC. I saw 4.5 with 45 rpm's at the HOS 200 and was really wishing I was running a triple instead of the 53/39 my lowest working rear cog was a 30. 39-30 is to big for Che Ha. keep spinning JS |
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Title: Re: climbing Post by FlyingLaZBoy on Apr 16th, 2009, 11:47am Nicely done on the Heart of the South race, John... Riding in that rain must have been brutal -- any near slip-downs? I assume the water is what caused Goggins's accident -- or wasn't it an accident, just self-damage? |
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Title: Re: climbing Post by Killer Bee on Apr 16th, 2009, 12:05pm Goggins hurt himself? That's too bad, he seemed like a nice person & anyone that participates & pushes their body to the max(physically/mentally) has my respect. I believe he is a Navy seal. Hopefully he will return to cycling soon. |
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Title: Re: climbing Post by JS on Apr 16th, 2009, 2:03pm FlyingLaZBoy wrote:
Paul, we had no rain for the 300 this year, I think the 500 might of got nailed the last couple of hours but I did not see any mention by the two man recumbent team of rain. I heard it was a hamstring injury, how he did it I do not know! (on a bike?) JS |
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Title: Re: climbing Post by FlyingLaZBoy on Apr 16th, 2009, 3:05pm Nuts, I must have been reading last year's report! LOL [smiley=vrolijk_1.gif] |
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Title: Re: climbing Post by goatstick on Apr 16th, 2009, 4:45pm JS wrote:
I heard it was a hamstring injury, how he did it I do not know! (on a bike?) JS [/quote]I sure wish Goggins a good recovery. We had a lot of fun talking with him and his crew. His mom was pretty funny but obviously a remarkable person herself. Hamstring injuries can be very frustrating and often require a very long recovery time. That's what finally forced me off of road bikes. |
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Title: Re: climbing Post by FooRider on May 3rd, 2009, 8:58am aikigreg wrote:
...but we call it 'maize'. |
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Title: Re: climbing Post by duncanjames on May 6th, 2009, 5:22pm aikigreg wrote:
Greg, up here in the Puget Sound (Seattle) I have loads of 3 mile long hills at 4%-10% grade. I am getting better at climbing every day in this area. I couldn't find a mostly flat route out here if I tried unless I do circles in my parking lot. |
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