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Moving cleat to near mid-foot (Read 231 times)
reever




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Moving cleat to near mid-foot
Oct 21st, 2017, 9:08pm
 
I thought I had read something here on RBENT about moving the cleat back from the ball of the foot to more near the mid-foot. The advantages were claimed to be 1) more power, 2) higher turnover rate, 3) fresher calves after long rides, 4) less tingle-toe or numb toe symptoms after long rides. I had an old pair of riding shoes that I could live without, so I did a little surgery on them with a drill and some longer screws. I measured from where I had my cleats (in the all-the-way-back position) and drilled two holes 4 cm back from that. Put the cleats in place and then had to do a little grinding because the screws stuck up a bit. In the process of doing that with a diamond tipped tile cutting blade, I inadvertently cut through my shoe's upper. Oops!!! The shoes still work. Today I went to WRL and rode a couple of times around the lake with my daughter's boyfriend. The very last part of our last lap I cut loose to see what kind of speed I could generate and hold with the old/new shoes. I felt like I was flying, but I always feel that way when I am experimenting. I'll have to dig up some old rides to see how fast I was able to go up the north side of the lake. I'll attach my garmin data...
 
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/2161787471
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reever




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Re: Moving cleat to near mid-foot
Reply #1 - Oct 21st, 2017, 9:34pm
 
I went back and looked......I was significantly faster today than I was the last time I had a good fast ride at WRL. If you have an old pair of shoes, you might try this kooky thing. Smiley Smiley Smiley
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Action Lad
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Re: Moving cleat to near mid-foot
Reply #2 - Oct 21st, 2017, 11:27pm
 
Quote from reever on Oct 21st, 2017, 9:34pm:
I went back and looked......I was significantly faster today than I was the last time I had a good fast ride at WRL. If you have an old pair of shoes, you might try this kooky thing. Smiley Smiley Smiley
Any significant difference in how your feet felt afterward or was it too short a ride to tell for certain?
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reever




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Re: Moving cleat to near mid-foot
Reply #3 - Oct 22nd, 2017, 10:50am
 
I think it was too short a ride.  
 
It may help me more than most NORMAL folks because my left leg was damaged by a chiropractor and I have some permanently atrophied muscles on my left leg that lift the foot up. With this setup, I don't have to try to use those muscles anymore--it's just quads, hams, and a touch of glutes. The guy who was promoting this on youtube was a triathlete who said that it allowed him to run better after getting off of his bike because he had calf muscles that were fresh.
 
And FYI.....I am probably Type 2 diabetic......I like to say I am borderline and I control it with diet and exercise, but who am I fooling? Those apple fritters and pumpkin pies are not what I'd call moderation. My toes are numb all of the time no matter what I do, and it is probably due to my condition....... It might be better not to use me as a subject when it comes to toe issues.
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rmillay
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Re: Moving cleat to near mid-foot
Reply #4 - Oct 22nd, 2017, 12:00pm
 
I've never heard anyone claim moving his cleats back into the instep increased his speed or power.  Efficiency tests have shown  best power achieved with cleats at the ball of the foot.  Also, tests find maximal leg extension and long crank length (like around 210mm) improve power.  These tests all involved comparison runs with experienced volunteers, and none I have seen were for more than one hour.  We know triathletes like longer cranks and high seat settings, and I guess for racing one can put up with a lot.  But we know how that can wear and chafe on long rides (not such a problem for recumbency).  Most of my randonneuring buds have moved their cleats back to relieve 'hot foot' or for more comfort on eight hour rides, or because of specific problems, like Morton's neuroma, with which I am familiar.
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reever




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Re: Moving cleat to near mid-foot
Reply #5 - Oct 22nd, 2017, 1:25pm
 
I'd never heard of this before either. I think it's sort of new. You know how the scientific community is slow to think out of the box, and this is definitely out of the box thinking.
 
If max power comes with complete leg extension, that would fit right in with this new setting. I don't think complete leg extension is measured at the knee and ankle. I think it is measured at the knee only.
 
A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, agreed? That can also be said of the circle we push--if we are relying on small muscles to push or pull the pedal through parts of that circular path (i.e. the muscles on the front of our shin), then we are not as powerful as we could be if we relied on larger, more powerful muscles to do the same thing (i.e., some of the quadriceps in the thigh).
 
I'll tell you what this feels like. It feels like shortening the stroke of an engine and therefore increasing the rpm. For us recumbenters increasing the rpms is usually a good thing since we are power deficient when compared to uprights.
 
Hey, I'm not convinced yet. If you don't want to try it--don't. If you do think you might.....study it for awhile before you drill holes in a pair of shoes. I just did it because I had an old pair that I had quit using. Not a debate....just a study of my own. I love sharing stuff that might be helpful to others.
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« Last Edit: Oct 22nd, 2017, 1:30pm by reever »  

Adults should have fun so kids will want to grow up!

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Re: Moving cleat to near mid-foot
Reply #6 - Oct 22nd, 2017, 6:47pm
 
I drilled my shoes a couple of years ago and moved the cleats back about 1/2 inch. No noticeable increased speed or power, but much less hot foot. I may have to realign in the left cleat, as I still get the slightest hot foot over there after about 40 miles...warm foot?  Smiley
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Bud_Bent
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Re: Moving cleat to near mid-foot
Reply #7 - Oct 26th, 2017, 6:34pm
 
There have been a lot of claims over the years that cleats should be a little further back for recumbents than upright bikes. I've always just put them as far back as possible on an unmodified shoe.
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Re: Moving cleat to near mid-foot
Reply #8 - Oct 28th, 2017, 8:36pm
 
The "Midfoot" cleat concept is apparently good for preventing "hotfoot," but I haven't read any reports of better power/speed.
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reever




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Re: Moving cleat to near mid-foot
Reply #9 - Oct 28th, 2017, 9:24pm
 
As I said earlier, this may just help me out more than most folks because of my withered muscles in my left shin due to some nerve damage. But I am noticing that when I shift into a higher gear it is like positraction......where my foot used to mush out and inform me that I may have gone a gear too high, now my thighs are in control and there is no collapse and downshift. I'm liking it.
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Adults should have fun so kids will want to grow up!

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reever




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Re: Moving cleat to near mid-foot
Reply #10 - Nov 6th, 2017, 9:58pm
 
Well, in my effort to see if this change is really helping or not, I took a trip to White Rock Lake today. It was all crickets and banjos when I rode--almost deserted. I think there was a breeze from the north. I took two laps and averaged 19.0mph and felt good. So I thought I would jettison my saddle bag and one of my two water bottles and try for a golden lap--under 30 minutes. I got me a running start and was pleasantly surprised to see that less than a mile into the ride my average speed was over 20mph. It got as high as 21.4mph before I hit that trail after the big hill by the dam that goes east. But at the end of that slight uphill I was still above 20 and felt I could finish fast on Lawther. I could see my big white sprinter van from along ways away, and looking at my computer I didn't think I had a chance. Sure enough I came up just short of the mark--30:43, but it was my pr on the loop by a big margin.  
 
For me..........I think this thing is working. Here's my ride----->  https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/2310634395
 
Oh, and by the way! I found Barbec's!!! Went by and had lunch/dinner with my daughter! Great food!
 
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« Last Edit: Nov 6th, 2017, 10:02pm by reever »  

Adults should have fun so kids will want to grow up!

For every mile of road there's two miles of ditch.

I'd rather be sorry for something I did than for something I didn't do.
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jayg
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Re: Moving cleat to near mid-foot
Reply #11 - Nov 7th, 2017, 3:09pm
 
Quote from reever on Nov 6th, 2017, 9:58pm:
Well, in my effort to see if this change is really helping or not, I took a trip to White Rock Lake today. It was all crickets and banjos when I rode--almost deserted. I think there was a breeze from the north. I took two laps and averaged 19.0mph and felt good. So I thought I would jettison my saddle bag and one of my two water bottles and try for a golden lap--under 30 minutes. I got me a running start and was pleasantly surprised to see that less than a mile into the ride my average speed was over 20mph. It got as high as 21.4mph before I hit that trail after the big hill by the dam that goes east. But at the end of that slight uphill I was still above 20 and felt I could finish fast on Lawther. I could see my big white sprinter van from along ways away, and looking at my computer I didn't think I had a chance. Sure enough I came up just short of the mark--30:43, but it was my pr on the loop by a big margin.

For me..........I think this thing is working. Here's my ride----->  https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/2310634395

Oh, and by the way! I found Barbec's!!! Went by and had lunch/dinner with my daughter! Great food!


 
Did a calculation for Key L the other day. A "Magic Lap" requires around a 21.2 mph average. He's getting closer and closer to being able to do one.
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reever




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Re: Moving cleat to near mid-foot
Reply #12 - Nov 7th, 2017, 6:05pm
 
That's nice to know. Thanks!
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Adults should have fun so kids will want to grow up!

For every mile of road there's two miles of ditch.

I'd rather be sorry for something I did than for something I didn't do.
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Action Lad
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Re: Moving cleat to near mid-foot
Reply #13 - Nov 8th, 2017, 10:32pm
 
Quote from reever on Nov 6th, 2017, 9:58pm:
Well, in my effort to see if this change is really helping or not, I took a trip to White Rock Lake today. It was all crickets and banjos when I rode--almost deserted. I think there was a breeze from the north. I took two laps and averaged 19.0mph and felt good. So I thought I would jettison my saddle bag and one of my two water bottles and try for a golden lap--under 30 minutes. I got me a running start and was pleasantly surprised to see that less than a mile into the ride my average speed was over 20mph. It got as high as 21.4mph before I hit that trail after the big hill by the dam that goes east. But at the end of that slight uphill I was still above 20 and felt I could finish fast on Lawther. I could see my big white sprinter van from along ways away, and looking at my computer I didn't think I had a chance. Sure enough I came up just short of the mark--30:43, but it was my pr on the loop by a big margin.

For me..........I think this thing is working. Here's my ride----->  https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/2310634395

Oh, and by the way! I found Barbec's!!! Went by and had lunch/dinner with my daughter! Great food!

Now that's smokin', reever!  As Jay said, I am getting ever closer to a Magic Lap.  Since the new path that by passes the Bath House Cultural Center was laid, I don't use the bumpy way closer to the Cultural Center that most people take.  That additional little bit will be on my M.L. when it finally happens.  Nearly ready to pack up the bikes now, as the daylight has gone with the arrival of standard time.  The trike takes over soon.  Safer at night with silly peds and motorists.     
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reever




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Re: Moving cleat to near mid-foot
Reply #14 - Nov 9th, 2017, 10:03am
 
So Action Lad, I am from Abilene and just make it out your way occasionally. I'm not familiar with all of the features of the lake like the bath house. Do you have a record of which paths you guys take in your quest for the magic lap? Can you look at mine and tell me if I'm taking the wrong way or a way that would cost me precious seconds? I'd appreciate it.
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Adults should have fun so kids will want to grow up!

For every mile of road there's two miles of ditch.

I'd rather be sorry for something I did than for something I didn't do.
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